| Author |
Message |
spamalicious
Guest
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 Posted:
Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:35 am Post subject:
94 Toyota Corolla - question |
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I got my oil changed last month at the dealership and at that time, I
was advised to get my timing belt and fan belts replaced. I did so
about 2 weeks later. Fast forward to today (1.5 weeks after getting
them replaced) I was driving along and heard a faint screeching sound,
like a belt only different from what it was like before I got them
changed (very faint, nowhere near as screechy). The malfunction
indicator light came on followed by the battery and then the engine oil
lights and the motor cut out and now it won't start.
My husband said that he had noticed the faint screeching sound the other
day as well. Anyway, he thinks that because when I turn the key, the
engine turns over more easily and faster than normal, it feels like not
the whole engine is turning over (top half is disconnected by timing
belt). There's a burned rubber smell as well under the hood and I had
noticed it while driving, but I thought it was from the vehicle in front
of me when I was driving.
So, does this sound like it's most likely a timing belt issue ex. a
faulty one had been installed? If not, what else could it be? I happen
to have about 199.5K miles (!) on this car and it seemed to be running
quite fun until now. No issues with it beforehand other than the usual
maintenance stuff.
Thanks,
N.
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Gord Beaman
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:18 am Post subject:
Re: 94 Toyota Corolla - question |
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spamalicious <spamalicious@verizon.net> wrote:
| Quote: | I got my oil changed last month at the dealership and at that time, I
was advised to get my timing belt and fan belts replaced. I did so
about 2 weeks later. Fast forward to today (1.5 weeks after getting
them replaced) I was driving along and heard a faint screeching sound,
like a belt only different from what it was like before I got them
changed (very faint, nowhere near as screechy). The malfunction
indicator light came on followed by the battery and then the engine oil
lights and the motor cut out and now it won't start.
My husband said that he had noticed the faint screeching sound the other
day as well. Anyway, he thinks that because when I turn the key, the
engine turns over more easily and faster than normal, it feels like not
the whole engine is turning over (top half is disconnected by timing
belt). There's a burned rubber smell as well under the hood and I had
noticed it while driving, but I thought it was from the vehicle in front
of me when I was driving.
So, does this sound like it's most likely a timing belt issue ex. a
faulty one had been installed? If not, what else could it be? I happen
to have about 199.5K miles (!) on this car and it seemed to be running
quite fun until now. No issues with it beforehand other than the usual
maintenance stuff.
Thanks,
N.
|
Sure sounds like the new timing belt gave up the ghost to
me...but let's see what Ray/Hachi/Philip say...
--
-Gord.
(use gordon in email) |
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spamalicious
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:07 am Post subject:
Re: 94 Toyota Corolla - question |
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Gord Beaman wrote:
| Quote: |
Sure sounds like the new timing belt gave up the ghost to
me...but let's see what Ray/Hachi/Philip say...
|
I hope it is just that. Do you think this is something that the
dealership, where I had the belts replaced, would assume responsibility
for it or do you think they'd make us pay out of pocket again?
N.
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Ray O
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:19 am Post subject:
Re: 94 Toyota Corolla - question |
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"spamalicious" <spamalicious@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Vl7jf.78$Ia2.70@trndny05...
| Quote: | I got my oil changed last month at the dealership and at that time, I was
advised to get my timing belt and fan belts replaced. I did so about 2
weeks later. Fast forward to today (1.5 weeks after getting them replaced)
I was driving along and heard a faint screeching sound, like a belt only
different from what it was like before I got them changed (very faint,
nowhere near as screechy). The malfunction indicator light came on followed
by the battery and then the engine oil lights and the motor cut out and now
it won't start.
My husband said that he had noticed the faint screeching sound the other
day as well. Anyway, he thinks that because when I turn the key, the
engine turns over more easily and faster than normal, it feels like not
the whole engine is turning over (top half is disconnected by timing
belt). There's a burned rubber smell as well under the hood and I had
noticed it while driving, but I thought it was from the vehicle in front
of me when I was driving.
So, does this sound like it's most likely a timing belt issue ex. a faulty
one had been installed? If not, what else could it be? I happen to have
about 199.5K miles (!) on this car and it seemed to be running quite fun
until now. No issues with it beforehand other than the usual maintenance
stuff.
Thanks,
N.
|
The burning rubber smell could have several causes.
It is possible that one of the accessory drive belts (used to be called fan
belts when they actually turned a fan) is slipping. The slipping could have
two basic causes: too loose (mis-adjusted, bad belt tensioner, or incorrect
belt or a component being turned by the belt is seized, causing the belt to
slip. Items run by accessory drive belts include the AC compressor,
alternator, and power steering pump.
If the engine is in fact freewheeling, then something is wrong with the
timing belt. It could be defective, although I've never heard of one going
bad so quickly. A more likely possibility is that the timing belt tensioner
or water pump failed or seized, causing the belt to snap or stretch or be
too loose.
If the failure was caused by the work that the dealership did, a reputable
dealership will stand behind their work and make it right. If the failure
was caused by the failure of another component, then they may charge for the
repair but give you a discount.
Good luck!
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply |
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Gord Beaman
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:20 am Post subject:
Re: 94 Toyota Corolla - question |
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spamalicious <spamalicious@verizon.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Gord Beaman wrote:
Sure sounds like the new timing belt gave up the ghost to
me...but let's see what Ray/Hachi/Philip say...
I hope it is just that. Do you think this is something that the
dealership, where I had the belts replaced, would assume responsibility
for it or do you think they'd make us pay out of pocket again?
N.
|
Well. if it IS that (and it sounds like it is) I'd be pretty
furious if they even hint at making you pay again for their
timing belt that failed in a couple of WEEKS!...I sure hope that
you have the old (dated) receipt?...good luck, let us know how
you made out...(don't let that old receipt out of your hands!...)
--
-Gord.
(use gordon in email) |
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Bruce L. Bergman
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:59 pm Post subject:
Re: 94 Toyota Corolla - question |
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|
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:36:14 -0600, "Ray O"
<rokigawa@tristarassociatesDOT.com> wrote:
| Quote: | "spamalicious" <spamalicious@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Vl7jf.78$Ia2.70@trndny05...
I got my oil changed last month at the dealership and at that time, I was
advised to get my timing belt and fan belts replaced. I did so about 2
weeks later. Fast forward to today (1.5 weeks after getting them replaced)
I was driving along and heard a faint screeching sound, like a belt only
different from what it was like before I got them changed (very faint,
nowhere near as screechy). The malfunction indicator light came on followed
by the battery and then the engine oil lights and the motor cut out and now
it won't start.
My husband said that he had noticed the faint screeching sound the other
day as well. Anyway, he thinks that because when I turn the key, the
engine turns over more easily and faster than normal, it feels like not
the whole engine is turning over (top half is disconnected by timing
belt). There's a burned rubber smell as well under the hood and I had
noticed it while driving, but I thought it was from the vehicle in front
of me when I was driving.
So, does this sound like it's most likely a timing belt issue ex. a faulty
one had been installed? If not, what else could it be? I happen to have
about 199.5K miles (!) on this car and it seemed to be running quite fun
until now. No issues with it beforehand other than the usual maintenance
stuff.
The burning rubber smell could have several causes.
It is possible that one of the accessory drive belts (used to be called fan
belts when they actually turned a fan) is slipping. The slipping could have
two basic causes: too loose (mis-adjusted, bad belt tensioner, or incorrect
belt or a component being turned by the belt is seized, causing the belt to
slip. Items run by accessory drive belts include the AC compressor,
alternator, and power steering pump.
|
Normally when the water pump is driven by the timing belt, they
suggest to change the water pump 'on general principles' while you are
in there changing the timing belt, for just this reason. Sometimes
the bearings in the water pump lock up without warning, and the water
pump stopping can break or pop loose the timing belt.
Sometimes the pump bearings feel fine when they are inspected and
spun by hand, even if they are on the way out. Stuff Happens.
When was the last time (if ever) they changed the water pump?
| Quote: | If the engine is in fact freewheeling, then something is wrong with the
timing belt. It could be defective, although I've never heard of one going
bad so quickly. A more likely possibility is that the timing belt tensioner
or water pump failed or seized, causing the belt to snap or stretch or be
too loose.
If the failure was caused by the work that the dealership did, a reputable
dealership will stand behind their work and make it right. If the failure
was caused by the failure of another component, then they may charge for the
repair but give you a discount.
|
I'll second that - they should give you a big break at the least.
The mechanic that did the work should have inspected the pump and the
tensioner idler very carefully while in there doing the belt, and if
there were any questions /at all/ suggested that you have them swap
out the pump and/or idler while the timing cover was open.
The only problem with the situation is if they automatically suggest
the pump or idler change right off when you are writing up the service
order, it sounds like an "Up-Sell", as if they're "throwing in extras"
for themselves - but 80% of a water pump job is digging down to it and
closing it up when done, and they ARE in there doing the timing belt.
The pump itself is cheap in comparison to the labor to get to it.
Get it fixed, and drive it another 100,000.
--<< Bruce >>--
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net. |
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spamalicious
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:18 am Post subject:
THANKS! Re: 94 Toyota Corolla - question |
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Thank you all for the help - will update when we find out what's going
on with the car.
N. |
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spamalicious
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:46 pm Post subject:
UPDATE Re: 94 Toyota Corolla - question |
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Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
| Quote: | I'll second that - they should give you a big break at the least.
The mechanic that did the work should have inspected the pump and the
tensioner idler very carefully while in there doing the belt, and if
there were any questions /at all/ suggested that you have them swap
out the pump and/or idler while the timing cover was open.
|
Well, as it turns out it was the idler pulley and they said that they
don't normally check it when changing the belts. The person my husband
talked to said that they'd never seen a timing belt burned/melted so
badly. So because they apparently don't ever check this idler pulley
thing when they replace the timing belt/accessory belts, it's not their
fault and we are out another $400 plus whatever the towing charges are
on top of that.
Does this sound right to you? Is it standard practice to check the
tension idler?
My husband said that if we hadn't gotten the car fixed, this never would
have happened, lol. Of course, maybe worse could have happened
eventually...
N. |
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Ray O
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:13 pm Post subject:
Re: UPDATE Re: 94 Toyota Corolla - question |
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|
"spamalicious" <spamalicious@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:e9Djf.1734$s96.1325@trndny01...
| Quote: | Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
I'll second that - they should give you a big break at the least.
The mechanic that did the work should have inspected the pump and the
tensioner idler very carefully while in there doing the belt, and if
there were any questions /at all/ suggested that you have them swap
out the pump and/or idler while the timing cover was open.
Well, as it turns out it was the idler pulley and they said that they
don't normally check it when changing the belts. The person my husband
talked to said that they'd never seen a timing belt burned/melted so
badly. So because they apparently don't ever check this idler pulley
thing when they replace the timing belt/accessory belts, it's not their
fault and we are out another $400 plus whatever the towing charges are on
top of that.
Does this sound right to you? Is it standard practice to check the
tension idler?
My husband said that if we hadn't gotten the car fixed, this never would
have happened, lol. Of course, maybe worse could have happened
eventually...
N.
|
I do not know if it is standard practice to check the idler pulley or not,
however, a competent technician should at least give it a cursory check when
threading the new belt around it. I do not have a copy of the factory
repair manual for that car, but my guess is that it does mention an
inspection of the pulley.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply |
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spamalicious
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:06 pm Post subject:
Re: UPDATE Re: 94 Toyota Corolla - question |
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Ray O wrote:
| Quote: |
I do not know if it is standard practice to check the idler pulley or not,
however, a competent technician should at least give it a cursory check when
threading the new belt around it. I do not have a copy of the factory
repair manual for that car, but my guess is that it does mention an
inspection of the pulley.
|
Anyone have a copy of the factory repair manual so we can check?
I really appreciate all the help!
N. |
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Gord Beaman
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:38 am Post subject:
Re: UPDATE Re: 94 Toyota Corolla - question |
|
|
spamalicious <spamalicious@verizon.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Ray O wrote:
I do not know if it is standard practice to check the idler pulley or not,
however, a competent technician should at least give it a cursory check when
threading the new belt around it. I do not have a copy of the factory
repair manual for that car, but my guess is that it does mention an
inspection of the pulley.
Anyone have a copy of the factory repair manual so we can check?
I really appreciate all the help!
N.
|
I'll bet it IS mentioned...sounds like it should be anyway...I'd
follow this up If it were me. If it -is- mentioned then jump on
them!...they directly caused your new belt to be wrecked, it was
likely tighter than the old one and 'finished the idler pulley
off'...this sounds like very poor work by the garage involved.
Remember...the squeaky wheel gets the grease!...you don't owe
them anything, certainly no reason to be 'nice' after they
screwed you...
--
-Gord.
(use gordon in email) |
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Bruce L. Bergman
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:18 am Post subject:
Re: UPDATE Re: 94 Toyota Corolla - question |
|
|
On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 09:13:07 -0600, "Ray O"
<rokigawa@tristarassociatesDOT.com> wrote:
| Quote: | "spamalicious" <spamalicious@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:e9Djf.1734$s96.1325@trndny01...
Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
I'll second that - they should give you a big break at the least.
The mechanic that did the work should have inspected the pump and the
tensioner idler very carefully while in there doing the belt, and if
there were any questions /at all/ suggested that you have them swap
out the pump and/or idler while the timing cover was open.
Well, as it turns out it was the idler pulley and they said that they
don't normally check it when changing the belts. The person my husband
talked to said that they'd never seen a timing belt burned/melted so
badly. So because they apparently don't ever check this idler pulley
thing when they replace the timing belt/accessory belts, it's not their
fault and we are out another $400 plus whatever the towing charges are on
top of that.
Does this sound right to you? Is it standard practice to check the
tension idler?
My husband said that if we hadn't gotten the car fixed, this never would
have happened, lol. Of course, maybe worse could have happened
eventually...
I do not know if it is standard practice to check the idler pulley or not,
however, a competent technician should at least give it a cursory check when
threading the new belt around it. I do not have a copy of the factory
repair manual for that car, but my guess is that it does mention an
inspection of the pulley.
|
I do not know, but I'm pretty sure the idlers and water pump would
be on the list of things to check in the service manual, and I am VERY
sure that even if they were not following a checklist any competent
mechanic would check them over while they have the covers open and
they are changing the timing belt(s).
It's simple enough to check all the idler pulleys and the water pump
- spin the bearing and check for spindown or lumpiness, and wiggle and
twist to check for unusual freeplay or slop. For the water pump, you
also look for the seal weeping coolant.
In My Not So Humble Opinion: If the pulley was so close to death
that it died a week after changing the timing belt, this is something
that any even halfway competent mechanic should have checked and could
have easily found before the total failure. They are already inside
the belt cover, and the mechanic knows the engine has 200,000 miles on
it - if those are all the original parts, they are more than due for a
very close inspection.
If I walked up to your house and had the electrical service panel
open for access, and I didn't give "The Usual Suspects" a quick
once-over (tighten screws, wiggle pressure connections, feel or IR
Thermometer scan for hot spots, sniff for toasty smells, etc.) I'd be
negligent in performing my job. I have caught many serious problems
early - BEFORE the electrical system totally failed. (*) I would
expect no less from someone working on a car engine.
(* - Like hearing the unique sizzle of an arcing fault in the House
Panel busbars while walking past the Condo laundry room to do
something else, and stopping to check out where it was coming from and
why. The Line Lugs in the panel were burning up, and I saved them
from a potential electrical fire in the panel. Not to mention a few
days with all the outdoor path, indoor hallway, stairway and lobby
lights out, no pool or spa, no garage electric gates, no entry phone,
no elevator cab lights...)
IMNSHO The dealer owes you a free cam belt and a serious discount on
the labor at the very least, if not a full stand-up apology like: "The
additional parts for the idler pulley will cost you $80, but we're
eating the second cam belt, the labor charges, and the tow charge. We
should have caught that bad bearing the first time and fixed it during
that service, and we apologize for the trouble."
That is, if they want to keep you as a satisfied customer so you'll
buy another Toyota... And if you voice a reasonable objection to the
dealer and they still try sticking you for the whole bill, kick it up
a level to the regional Toyota Corporate folks (like Ray used to be) -
they want to keep the customers happy too, and they can exert pressure
on the dealer that you or I can't.
--<< Bruce >>--
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net. |
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Ray O
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:18 am Post subject:
Re: UPDATE Re: 94 Toyota Corolla - question |
|
|
"Gord Beaman" <gord@islandtelecom.com> wrote in message
news:9mfer11o3aflli3kie38offqoun9nnuqqk@4ax.com...
| Quote: | spamalicious <spamalicious@verizon.net> wrote:
Ray O wrote:
I do not know if it is standard practice to check the idler pulley or
not,
however, a competent technician should at least give it a cursory check
when
threading the new belt around it. I do not have a copy of the factory
repair manual for that car, but my guess is that it does mention an
inspection of the pulley.
Anyone have a copy of the factory repair manual so we can check?
I really appreciate all the help!
N.
I'll bet it IS mentioned...sounds like it should be anyway...I'd
follow this up If it were me. If it -is- mentioned then jump on
them!...they directly caused your new belt to be wrecked, it was
likely tighter than the old one and 'finished the idler pulley
off'...this sounds like very poor work by the garage involved.
Remember...the squeaky wheel gets the grease!...you don't owe
them anything, certainly no reason to be 'nice' after they
screwed you...
--
-Gord.
(use gordon in email)
|
The factory repair manual for the 97 Avalon specifically mentions inspection
of the idler pulley and tensioner when replacing the timing belt, including
procedures for inspecting the pulley and tensioner.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply |
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spamalicious
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:42 pm Post subject:
Re: UPDATE Re: 94 Toyota Corolla - question |
|
|
Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
| Quote: | IMNSHO The dealer owes you a free cam belt and a serious discount on
the labor at the very least, if not a full stand-up apology like: "The
additional parts for the idler pulley will cost you $80, but we're
eating the second cam belt, the labor charges, and the tow charge. We
should have caught that bad bearing the first time and fixed it during
that service, and we apologize for the trouble."
|
Thank you so much again for all the responses to this continuing saga of
my beloved Corolla. :)
My husband called the service dept. with all this info in hand and this
is the email I got back from him:
"She said that she can't guarantee that the car will be ready today.
They got the parts today, but they had been overbooked with work in
previous days. She will try to have it done today, if not it may not be
ready until Monday.
When I asked, she replied that the water pump had been inspected when
the work was originally done and that it was ok. Also, she said that
the idler pulley HAD been inspected and was ok. I said that the belts
must have been overtightened and she said that since the pulley is just
to keep tension on the belt, that they could not have been
overtightened. She went on to say that there is nothing that the
mechanic did that could have caused the idler pulley to sieze and there
is nothing that could have been done to prevent it.
I asked what she can do about the charges, she said that she still needs
to talk to the service manager about it.
She will call me to let me know when the car is done.
Right now, the ball is in their court. Let's wait to see what the
charges are."
So, it sounds like they're washing their hands clean of any
responsibility. They said the water pump and the pulley were inspected
and were ok when they replaced the timing belt 2 weeks ago. Does this
still sound right to you all?
Thanks so much for the advice - I really appreciate it all.
N. |
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Ray O
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:56 pm Post subject:
Re: UPDATE Re: 94 Toyota Corolla - question |
|
|
"spamalicious" <spamalicious@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:y3Zjf.3$Qf5.2@trndny07...
| Quote: | Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
IMNSHO The dealer owes you a free cam belt and a serious discount on
the labor at the very least, if not a full stand-up apology like: "The
additional parts for the idler pulley will cost you $80, but we're
eating the second cam belt, the labor charges, and the tow charge. We
should have caught that bad bearing the first time and fixed it during
that service, and we apologize for the trouble."
Thank you so much again for all the responses to this continuing saga of
my beloved Corolla. :)
My husband called the service dept. with all this info in hand and this is
the email I got back from him:
"She said that she can't guarantee that the car will be ready today. They
got the parts today, but they had been overbooked with work in previous
days. She will try to have it done today, if not it may not be ready
until Monday.
When I asked, she replied that the water pump had been inspected when the
work was originally done and that it was ok. Also, she said that the
idler pulley HAD been inspected and was ok. I said that the belts must
have been overtightened and she said that since the pulley is just to keep
tension on the belt, that they could not have been overtightened. She
went on to say that there is nothing that the mechanic did that could have
caused the idler pulley to sieze and there is nothing that could have been
done to prevent it.
I asked what she can do about the charges, she said that she still needs
to talk to the service manager about it.
She will call me to let me know when the car is done.
Right now, the ball is in their court. Let's wait to see what the charges
are."
So, it sounds like they're washing their hands clean of any
responsibility. They said the water pump and the pulley were inspected
and were ok when they replaced the timing belt 2 weeks ago. Does this
still sound right to you all?
Thanks so much for the advice - I really appreciate it all.
N.
|
I find it difficult to believe that the idler pulley could be OK one day and
toast 2 weeks later, although nothing is impossible. The thing that would
make me wonder is that they first told you that they don't check the idler
pulley as part of the timing belt replacement and then they tell you that
they did check.
Just curious, where is the dealership?
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply |
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