| Author |
Message |
TE Cheah
Guest
|
 Posted:
Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:45 pm Post subject:
Inaccurate wheel balancing - has any1 here experiemced this |
|
|
My 4ws accord's steering has been often fine since '93, but has been
wobbling @ >100 kph since 8-04 after I replaced 2 front tyres with 2
Michelin green model of 205/65R15, no wobble @ <100 kph. I
suspected 1 shop's balancing was inaccurate, so got another shop with
a newer machine to re balance 1 tyre : this newer machine found a 5g
shortage on the outer rim of the 6½ x 15" JRD alloy wheel, just 200
km after the 1st shop's older machine reported this wheel as balanced
& OK. I never found a 205/65R15 to be 5g out of balance after such a
little wear, so I think the 1st shop ( located far from highway )'s
machine was not accurate enough.
I suspect shops near highway are more likely to have accurate
machines ; customers who drive on highway @once after wheel
balancing will know @once whether balancing is accurate.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
E. Meyer
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:06 pm Post subject:
Re: Inaccurate wheel balancing - has any1 here experiemced t |
|
|
On 12/1/04 4:45 AM, in article 41adcfa3_1@news.tm.net.my, "TE Cheah"
<no@spam.biz> wrote:
| Quote: | My 4ws accord's steering has been often fine since '93, but has been
wobbling @ >100 kph since 8-04 after I replaced 2 front tyres with 2
Michelin green model of 205/65R15, no wobble @ <100 kph. I
suspected 1 shop's balancing was inaccurate, so got another shop with
a newer machine to re balance 1 tyre : this newer machine found a 5g
shortage on the outer rim of the 6½ x 15" JRD alloy wheel, just 200
km after the 1st shop's older machine reported this wheel as balanced
& OK. I never found a 205/65R15 to be 5g out of balance after such a
little wear, so I think the 1st shop ( located far from highway )'s
machine was not accurate enough.
I suspect shops near highway are more likely to have accurate
machines ; customers who drive on highway @once after wheel
balancing will know @once whether balancing is accurate.
It has little to do with the age of the machine. Happens all the time. The |
guy who did the balancing didn't care, or he didn't know how to do it, or
the machine was out of calibration, or the wheel was not properly mounted on
the machine, or the tire itself is no good, or all the above.
There is a Discount Tire and a NTB outlet near me. I have stopped using NTB
for any balancing because it usually takes them 3-5 tries to balance a tire.
Discount Tire gets it right about 2 out of 3 tries. Watching them in
action, it appears the problem is that they try to do it as fast as humanly
possible. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:04 am Post subject:
Re: Inaccurate wheel balancing - has any1 here experiemced t |
|
|
TE Cheah <no@spam.biz> wrote:
| Quote: | My 4ws accord's steering has been often fine since '93, but has been
wobbling @ >100 kph since 8-04 after I replaced 2 front tyres with 2
Michelin green model of 205/65R15, no wobble @ <100 kph. I
suspected 1 shop's balancing was inaccurate, so got another shop with
a newer machine to re balance 1 tyre : this newer machine found a 5g
shortage on the outer rim of the 6? x 15" JRD alloy wheel, just 200
km after the 1st shop's older machine reported this wheel as balanced
& OK. I never found a 205/65R15 to be 5g out of balance after such a
little wear, so I think the 1st shop ( located far from highway )'s
machine was not accurate enough.
I suspect shops near highway are more likely to have accurate
machines ; customers who drive on highway @once after wheel
balancing will know @once whether balancing is accurate.
|
Find a shop near by that has the GSP 9700 balancer.
www.gsp9700.com
I was having strange vibration problems on my Maxima until I have it
done at a shop that have it, American Tire Co (not all of them have
it, in my case, I have to ask for a "ride matching balance" and is
about $15 a tire). The difference is phenomenal.
It is also called road force balance. See if they can get the road
force to be below 6 pounds per tire.
Before that, I had my tires balanced at 3 different shops, including
another American Tire Co. The job quality varies between shops, but
even in the best case, there's still a subtle but annoying vibration
at 70+ speed.
With the gsp9700, I don't feel anything even at 90. It runs very
smooth.
Raymond
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Anthony
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 02, 2004 3:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Inaccurate wheel balancing - has any1 here experiemced t |
|
|
nospam.auto@none.com wrote in news:colm7b$22ls$1@agate.berkeley.edu:
| Quote: | TE Cheah <no@spam.biz> wrote:
My 4ws accord's steering has been often fine since '93, but has been
wobbling @ >100 kph since 8-04 after I replaced 2 front tyres with 2
Michelin green model of 205/65R15, no wobble @ <100 kph. I
suspected 1 shop's balancing was inaccurate, so got another shop with
a newer machine to re balance 1 tyre : this newer machine found a 5g
shortage on the outer rim of the 6? x 15" JRD alloy wheel, just 200
km after the 1st shop's older machine reported this wheel as balanced
& OK. I never found a 205/65R15 to be 5g out of balance after such a
little wear, so I think the 1st shop ( located far from highway )'s
machine was not accurate enough.
I suspect shops near highway are more likely to have accurate
machines ; customers who drive on highway @once after wheel
balancing will know @once whether balancing is accurate.
Find a shop near by that has the GSP 9700 balancer.
www.gsp9700.com
I was having strange vibration problems on my Maxima until I have it
done at a shop that have it, American Tire Co (not all of them have
it, in my case, I have to ask for a "ride matching balance" and is
about $15 a tire). The difference is phenomenal.
It is also called road force balance. See if they can get the road
force to be below 6 pounds per tire.
Before that, I had my tires balanced at 3 different shops, including
another American Tire Co. The job quality varies between shops, but
even in the best case, there's still a subtle but annoying vibration
at 70+ speed.
With the gsp9700, I don't feel anything even at 90. It runs very
smooth.
Raymond
|
The best balance you will get, will come from a combination of off-car
and on-car balancing methods.
Have the tire/wheel electronically balanced, then find a shop that does
on-car balancing.
They actually spin the wheel up to speed on the car. This takes care of
any imbalance problems in the rest of the rotating assembly on the car.
--
Anthony
You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.
Remove sp to reply via email |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TE Cheah
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:54 pm Post subject:
Re: Inaccurate wheel balancing - has any1 here experiemced t |
|
|
| It has little to do with the age of the machine.
You may be right.
I've realised why balancing is often inadequate : e.g. @110 kph my
crankshaft needs to spin @3025 rpm, then given my accord's combined
gear ratio of 3.1323 ( = 0.731 x 4.285 ), front wheels must spin @ 3025
÷ 3.1323 = 965.7 rpm or 16.1 rps, but the 2 machines that balanced my
tyres in 8-04 did not spin this fast ( I estimate as just 4 rps ), then these
machines could not possibly detect any vibration which appear only by
16.1 rps.
| they try to do it as fast as humanly possible
Looks like tyre shops reduce their machines' spin speeds, to balance tyres
faster, because their machines will take longer to reach such a high speed
of 16 rps ( or slow to a stop from 16 rps ). A worldwide con ?
Looks like highway drivers need to avoid slow machines a-f-a-p, or ask
shops to make their machines spin fstr. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:09 pm Post subject:
Re: Inaccurate wheel balancing - has any1 here experiemced t |
|
|
Anthony <tonytn36sp@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | The best balance you will get, will come from a combination of off-car
and on-car balancing methods.
Have the tire/wheel electronically balanced, then find a shop that does
on-car balancing.
They actually spin the wheel up to speed on the car. This takes care of
any imbalance problems in the rest of the rotating assembly on the car.
|
You mean first balance thhe wheels, adding any weights necessary so
the wheel is prefectly balanced.
Then balance the tire on wheels, like you normally do.
And finally do a on car balance? Does this adjusts the balance done in step 2?
I wonder what kind of shops would do this in this much detail.... know
any in the bay area?
Raymond |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Refinish_King1
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:06 pm Post subject:
Re: Inaccurate wheel balancing - has any1 here experiemced t |
|
|
You can do it in one step:
Balance the wheel on the car, mark the stud where the valve stem lines up,
and the tire can always be reinstalled the same way.
Balancing the tire off the car and then on the car, is redundant and a?
Refinish King
<nospam.auto@none.com> wrote in message
news:consql$2lmt$1@agate.berkeley.edu...
| Quote: | Anthony <tonytn36sp@hotmail.com> wrote:
The best balance you will get, will come from a combination of off-car
and on-car balancing methods.
Have the tire/wheel electronically balanced, then find a shop that does
on-car balancing.
They actually spin the wheel up to speed on the car. This takes care of
any imbalance problems in the rest of the rotating assembly on the car.
You mean first balance thhe wheels, adding any weights necessary so
the wheel is prefectly balanced.
Then balance the tire on wheels, like you normally do.
And finally do a on car balance? Does this adjusts the balance done in
step 2?
I wonder what kind of shops would do this in this much detail.... know
any in the bay area?
Raymond |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rick Brandt
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:40 am Post subject:
Re: Inaccurate wheel balancing - has any1 here experiemced t |
|
|
"TE Cheah" <no@spam.biz> wrote in message news:41adcfa3_1@news.tm.net.my...
| Quote: | My 4ws accord's steering has been often fine since '93, but has been
wobbling @ >100 kph since 8-04 after I replaced 2 front tyres with 2
Michelin green model of 205/65R15, no wobble @ <100 kph. I
suspected 1 shop's balancing was inaccurate, so got another shop with
a newer machine to re balance 1 tyre : this newer machine found a 5g
shortage on the outer rim of the 6½ x 15" JRD alloy wheel, just 200
km after the 1st shop's older machine reported this wheel as balanced
& OK. I never found a 205/65R15 to be 5g out of balance after such a
little wear, so I think the 1st shop ( located far from highway )'s
machine was not accurate enough.
I suspect shops near highway are more likely to have accurate
machines ; customers who drive on highway @once after wheel
balancing will know @once whether balancing is accurate.
|
I work at Hunter Engineering where we make some of the best balancing equipment
and I can tell you, 5 grams is nothing. Every time you drive over some gravel
you pick up that much and the slightest change in centering will cause a
variation much greater than that.
In fact almost all balancing equipment has a default "blind setting". Basically
weight below which the balancer ignores and just displays zero. The default
blind would typically be quite a bit higher than five grams.
BTW 1 gram is roughly what a paper clip weighs. Imagine feeling five of those
taped to your rim (you won't). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
speed kills
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:19 pm Post subject:
Re: Inaccurate wheel balancing - has any1 here experiemced t |
|
|
Do tires and wheels still have a mark on them for their "heavy" spot ?
If so, do folks take them into consideration when mounting the tire to the
wheel ?
"Rick Brandt" <rvtjbrandt@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:31d0lnF37809aU1@individual.net...
| Quote: | "TE Cheah" <no@spam.biz> wrote in message
news:41adcfa3_1@news.tm.net.my...
My 4ws accord's steering has been often fine since '93, but has been
wobbling @ >100 kph since 8-04 after I replaced 2 front tyres with 2
Michelin green model of 205/65R15, no wobble @ <100 kph. I
suspected 1 shop's balancing was inaccurate, so got another shop with
a newer machine to re balance 1 tyre : this newer machine found a 5g
shortage on the outer rim of the 6½ x 15" JRD alloy wheel, just 200
km after the 1st shop's older machine reported this wheel as balanced
& OK. I never found a 205/65R15 to be 5g out of balance after such a
little wear, so I think the 1st shop ( located far from highway )'s
machine was not accurate enough.
I suspect shops near highway are more likely to have accurate
machines ; customers who drive on highway @once after wheel
balancing will know @once whether balancing is accurate.
I work at Hunter Engineering where we make some of the best balancing
equipment and I can tell you, 5 grams is nothing. Every time you drive
over some gravel you pick up that much and the slightest change in
centering will cause a variation much greater than that.
In fact almost all balancing equipment has a default "blind setting".
Basically weight below which the balancer ignores and just displays zero.
The default blind would typically be quite a bit higher than five grams.
BTW 1 gram is roughly what a paper clip weighs. Imagine feeling five of
those taped to your rim (you won't).
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rick Brandt
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:43 pm Post subject:
Re: Inaccurate wheel balancing - has any1 here experiemced t |
|
|
"speed kills" <nonono@blox.com> wrote in message
news:35ednZlWGMAVSCzcRVn-gQ@comcast.com...
| Quote: | Do tires and wheels still have a mark on them for their "heavy" spot ?
If so, do folks take them into consideration when mounting the tire to the
wheel ?
|
I believe that is still the usual practice although some manufacturers might not
simply because they don't want to admit that their tires _have_ a heavy spot.
Matching heavy spots between wheel and tire is a lot less prevalent due to the
increased use of alloy wheels. They generally are not going to have the same
heavy spot issues as a stamped wheel. Tire changers so equipped can do this,
but it will normally only be attempted if the initial spin shows an unusually
large imbalance. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TE Cheah
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:53 pm Post subject:
Re: Inaccurate wheel balancing - has any1 here experienced t |
|
|
| we make some of the best balancing equipment
How fast does your machine spin wheels ?
Does your machine have a rpm indicater ?
Does a machine need to spin wheels as fast as cars do on highways,
to adequately simulate highway usage ?
Can a machine be too worn out to detect accurately ? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aarcuda69062
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:21 pm Post subject:
Re: Inaccurate wheel balancing - has any1 here experienced t |
|
|
In article <41b1f0e2_2@news.tm.net.my>, "TE Cheah" <no@spam.biz>
wrote:
| Quote: | | we make some of the best balancing equipment
How fast does your machine spin wheels ?
|
Doesn't matter.
| Quote: | Does your machine have a rpm indicater ?
|
Probably not (see above).
| Quote: | Does a machine need to spin wheels as fast as cars do on highways,
to adequately simulate highway usage ?
|
No.
| Quote: | Can a machine be too worn out to detect accurately ?
|
Absolutely. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rick Brandt
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:42 pm Post subject:
Re: Inaccurate wheel balancing - has any1 here experienced t |
|
|
"TE Cheah" <no@spam.biz> wrote in message news:41b1f0e2_2@news.tm.net.my...
| Quote: | | we make some of the best balancing equipment
How fast does your machine spin wheels ?
Does your machine have a rpm indicater ?
Does a machine need to spin wheels as fast as cars do on highways,
to adequately simulate highway usage ?
|
A wheel that is out of balance is out of balance at ALL speeds. The fact that
some imbalances are more noticeable at certain speeds is due to harmonics. All
that matters when balancing is that the computer doing the balancing has to know
the RPM during the spin. What that RPM is doesn't matter.
| Quote: | Can a machine be too worn out to detect accurately ?
|
If the structure of the balancer is unsound it will add or subtract from the
wheel balance being measured and this would certainly make it very difficult to
obtain a zero reading. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:00 am Post subject:
Re: Inaccurate wheel balancing - has any1 here experienced t |
|
|
If one wants to get the most actuate balance possible the wheel
should be balanced on the vehicle. Even them you can still have
what appears to be a balance problem when you consider a spinning
block can be balanced ;)
mike hunt
aarcuda69062 wrote:
| Quote: |
In article <41b1f0e2_2@news.tm.net.my>, "TE Cheah" <no@spam.biz
wrote:
| we make some of the best balancing equipment
How fast does your machine spin wheels ?
Doesn't matter.
Does your machine have a rpm indicater ?
Probably not (see above).
Does a machine need to spin wheels as fast as cars do on highways,
to adequately simulate highway usage ?
No.
Can a machine be too worn out to detect accurately ?
Absolutely. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rick Brandt
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Dec 06, 2004 4:21 am Post subject:
Re: Inaccurate wheel balancing - has any1 here experienced t |
|
|
<BenDover@mailcity.com> wrote in message news:41B376D6.72013E2F@mailcity.com...
| Quote: | If one wants to get the most actuate balance possible the wheel
should be balanced on the vehicle. Even them you can still have
what appears to be a balance problem when you consider a spinning
block can be balanced ;)
|
While on-car balancing eliminates the inherent problem of centering the wheel it
is also very difficult to design an on-car balancer that is as accurate as an
off-car one. You basically lose all control of the "balance structure" and you
can pick up vibrations from drive components that are impossible to distinguish
from imbalance in the tire/wheel assembly.
You are correct though that balance is certainly not the only source of
vibration from the tire/wheel. Tires can be out-of-round and/or can have
varying degrees of sidewall stiffness. The GSP9700 balancer that another poster
mentioned is the only balancer on the market that is designed to detect both of
these conditions. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
Memberlist
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in