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Sleeker GT Phwoar
Guest
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 Posted:
Tue May 31, 2005 4:13 pm Post subject:
Re: The Cayman, Porsche's Frankenstein! |
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In article <1117338124.286652.205360@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
OneActor1@aol.com says...
| Quote: | Purist people who think that a 911 has to have an
air-cooled flat-six to be a "real" 911, but the GT3 would deifinitely
be my preferred model of the range. It's kind of kind of
uncompromising, unapologetic, road-eating demeanor and track capability
that a real sports car should, and the kind of "drive me right or I'll
bite you" attitude a 911 (or any proper track car) should.
I'm waiting until I can afford to find a proper old skool SWB aircooled |
911 "idiot killer". I want a car that I can respect.
--
"Sorry Sir, the meatballs are Orf"
The poster formerly known as Skodapilot.
http://www.bouncing-czechs.com
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Steven Grauman
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:13 am Post subject:
Re: The Cayman, Porsche's Frankenstein! |
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<<I'm waiting until I can afford to find a proper old skool SWB
aircooled
911 "idiot killer". I want a car that I can respect>>
I think the 996 and upcoming 997 versions of the GT3 are pretty respect
commanding. I guess if you really want to go old-school there's always
the much-coveted 911 RS 2.7 and RS/RSR 3.0 from the early 70s. But the
amount of money those command and their rarity, IMO, sort of command
that they more or less be garage queens. I'm not sure I want to risk
putting one into a wall ass-first. There's also the generally more
affordable and easier to come by 1977-1979 930, probably the best of
the pre-964 Turbos. But that Turbo lag is a serious killer, and a
4-speed tranny in a Porsche doesn't seem right unless we're talking
about a 356. I've always sort of been keen on the idea of buying a 79'
930 and doing a ground-up rebuild focusing on making the engine more
tractable, maybe going to a more modern Turbocharger with a
ball-bearing mounted impeller for quicker spools, but that's just
another one of my pipe dreams, because I'm nowhere near the income
level neccesary to undertake thosekinds of projects. Of course, I'm
only 22, so maybe in a decade or two I'll have the rescources. |
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Eza Gadson
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:13 am Post subject:
Re: The Cayman, Porsche's Frankenstein! |
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Very nearly my point exactly.
1. Yes, a lighter better balanced car will perform better in the twisties.
Which is precisely what we want. Remember, we Americans excel at straight
line acceleration and can indeed provide significantly better straight line
acceleration for the $/Euro than Porsche. I'm not paying Ferry's progeny up
for a stop light drag racer. I pay for Porsche because it does better in
the corners, thus I really want it to do better in the corners.
2. Yes, I did reference track results for the Cayman S versus the standard
911. But still, the Cayman S is slated to be significantly cheaper than the
standard 911 and, we all know that Porsche HQ knows that the Cayman/Boxster
is a "better" layout than the 911 and has thus downtuned the Cayman so as
not to embarrass the 911. (C'mon, be honest here!)
3. Finally, four seconds on the Nurburgring is not a lot for the likes of
you and me, but for Herr Rohl it's significant. Give appropriate chassis
credit where said credit is due.
You are left with your height. I have heard the height complaint about the
Boxster before and I sympathize. I'm a short guy though so I guess that's
finally worth something to me.
On 5/30/05 10:41 PM, in article 29Qme.5744$fp.520@fed1read05, "Jim Keenan"
<jimkeenan@cox.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
"Eza Gadson" <egadson@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:BEBF2D40.A1A3%egadson@earthlink.net...
On 5/26/05 9:31 AM, in article 4295cfa8$0$79455$14726298@news.sunsite.dk,
"Pete M" <pete.murray@blue-nopressedmeat-yonder.co.uk> wrote:
...or maybe it's for people who want BETTER handling than the "proper"
911.
These are the often the same people who understand that though the 911 is
Porsche's most popular car, it's not necessarily Porsche's best car.
It's the best car for those of us who are too tall to fit comfortably into a
Boxster and
take the time to learn and understand the handling dynamics of the rear
engine layout.
You will note that the Cayman S has lapped the Nurburgring faster than the
standard 997, even though it is down on power and slower.
Porsche lists the Cayman S at 5.1 seconds to 60 MPH and a 171 MPH top speed.
The base 997 is listed as 4.8 seconds and 177 MPH. Remember, this is the
high performance
variant of the Cayman line against the base Carrera. Also remember the 'Ring
is some 13+ miles
long, with some 73+ bends, so the small straight line speed advantages of
the 997 is more than
balanced by the Cayman's ability (one would think) to generate higher
lateral acceleration through and
exit speeds from all those bends. I've never seen actual lap times for the
two cars posted; the rumors I've heard
had the Cayman S only a second or two faster than the base 997. Pretty safe
bet the Carrera S
skins the little croc on the same course.
And if the road was slick, the 997's rear weight bias would make its
oversteer tendency easier to exploit.
As close as the two cars apparently are, the 997 might be quicker under
adverse conditions.
And Walter Rohl
was driving both cars so we can safely assume that he was not backing off
in
the 997 because he was "scared" of its handling characteristics. What does
that tell you about the comparative handling?
It tells me if you take a lighter, more neutral handling car with nearly the
same straight line speed
capability as the 997 to a course that places a premium on the ability to
carry speed through and off the corners
and it is only a couple of seconds faster after 13+ miles, then the 911 is
still Porsche's best car after all.
Being a Brit, you might also note Autocar magazine's tag line on the
Carerra
GT:
"Outrageous performance and a truly remarkable chassis make the Carerra GT
feel like a 600bhp Boxster. The most complete supercar ever."
In the ad campaign for the 993 Porsche claimed to have cheated the laws of
physics. Cute ad, but its just an ad, not the truth.
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Jim Keenan
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:13 am Post subject:
Re: The Cayman, Porsche's Frankenstein! |
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"Eza Gadson" <egadson@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:BEC2AD3D.A635%egadson@earthlink.net...
we all know that Porsche HQ knows that the Cayman/Boxster
| Quote: | is a "better" layout than the 911 and has thus downtuned the Cayman so as
not to embarrass the 911. (C'mon, be honest here!)
|
The 3.4l that powered the first 996 was originally rated at 296 hp, then
300. When Porsche jumped the hp for the 2002 996, they did so by upping the
engine to 3.6l. The Cayman S has a 3.4l producing 295 hp, so that doesn't
sound like downtuning to me. Porsche rates the 3.6l in the base 997 at 325
hp while the 3.6l in the 2002+ 996 was 320 hp, yet Porsche claims identical
top speeds and 0-60 times for both cars, so the 5 hp didn't make any
difference with those cars and it probably doesn't with the Cayman S either.
Remember, the Cayman S is the cutting edge performance Boxster suspension
and the base 997 doesn't feature the PASM found on the Carrera S. Put the
more performance oriented PASM on the base 997 and the Cayman S 2 or 4
second advantage FOR OVER 13 MILES and 73+ bends dries up.
Porsche has produced "better" layouts than the 911 before. The 914,
924/944/968 all featured more even weight distribution than the 911, and
they're all extinct.
But the evergreen 911 motors on. The car has been in production for over 40
straight years and is simply one of the greatest sports cars ever. Clearly,
the rear engine layout has stood the test of time in the marketplace and on
the race course. I have a 2002 996 C2 coupe and it's been my experience that
most of the folks who knock the 911 have never spent any considerable time
in one.
| Quote: | 3. Finally, four seconds on the Nurburgring is not a lot for the likes of
you and me, but for Herr Rohl it's significant. Give appropriate chassis
credit where said credit is due.
|
Sorry, but when Porsche's ace driver only manages a 2 to 4 second better lap
time over the 'Ring in the highest performance Boxster variant with that
"better" layout than the standard performance 997, I'm not running out to
my friendly local Porsche dealer to get my deposit in for the Cayman. I had
a Boxster loaner when the Carrera went in for rear tires, and it was a
delightful car to drive - I'm sure the Cayman S will be more of the same.
But for those of us who have a clue as to what to do if the tail starts to
move on a 911, there is no substitute.
| Quote: | You are left with your height. I have heard the height complaint about
the
Boxster before and I sympathize.
|
Yeah, and I don't fit too well in the Hughes 500 series helicopters
either......
| Quote: |
On 5/30/05 10:41 PM, in article 29Qme.5744$fp.520@fed1read05, "Jim
Keenan"
jimkeenan@cox.net> wrote:
"Eza Gadson" <egadson@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:BEBF2D40.A1A3%egadson@earthlink.net...
On 5/26/05 9:31 AM, in article
4295cfa8$0$79455$14726298@news.sunsite.dk,
"Pete M" <pete.murray@blue-nopressedmeat-yonder.co.uk> wrote:
...or maybe it's for people who want BETTER handling than the "proper"
911.
These are the often the same people who understand that though the 911
is
Porsche's most popular car, it's not necessarily Porsche's best car.
It's the best car for those of us who are too tall to fit comfortably
into a
Boxster and
take the time to learn and understand the handling dynamics of the rear
engine layout.
You will note that the Cayman S has lapped the Nurburgring faster than
the
standard 997, even though it is down on power and slower.
Porsche lists the Cayman S at 5.1 seconds to 60 MPH and a 171 MPH top
speed.
The base 997 is listed as 4.8 seconds and 177 MPH. Remember, this is the
high performance
variant of the Cayman line against the base Carrera. Also remember the
'Ring
is some 13+ miles
long, with some 73+ bends, so the small straight line speed advantages of
the 997 is more than
balanced by the Cayman's ability (one would think) to generate higher
lateral acceleration through and
exit speeds from all those bends. I've never seen actual lap times for
the
two cars posted; the rumors I've heard
had the Cayman S only a second or two faster than the base 997. Pretty
safe
bet the Carrera S
skins the little croc on the same course.
And if the road was slick, the 997's rear weight bias would make its
oversteer tendency easier to exploit.
As close as the two cars apparently are, the 997 might be quicker under
adverse conditions.
And Walter Rohl
was driving both cars so we can safely assume that he was not backing
off
in
the 997 because he was "scared" of its handling characteristics. What
does
that tell you about the comparative handling?
It tells me if you take a lighter, more neutral handling car with nearly
the
same straight line speed
capability as the 997 to a course that places a premium on the ability to
carry speed through and off the corners
and it is only a couple of seconds faster after 13+ miles, then the 911
is
still Porsche's best car after all.
Being a Brit, you might also note Autocar magazine's tag line on the
Carerra
GT:
"Outrageous performance and a truly remarkable chassis make the Carerra
GT
feel like a 600bhp Boxster. The most complete supercar ever."
In the ad campaign for the 993 Porsche claimed to have cheated the laws
of
physics. Cute ad, but its just an ad, not the truth.
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Chicago Paddling-Fishing
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:22 am Post subject:
Re: The Cayman, Porsche's Frankenstein! |
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Sleeker GT Phwoar <carl.robson@bouncing-czechs.com> wrote:
: In article <1117338124.286652.205360@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
: OneActor1@aol.com says...
:> Purist people who think that a 911 has to have an
:> air-cooled flat-six to be a "real" 911, but the GT3 would deifinitely
:> be my preferred model of the range. It's kind of kind of
:> uncompromising, unapologetic, road-eating demeanor and track capability
:> that a real sports car should, and the kind of "drive me right or I'll
:> bite you" attitude a 911 (or any proper track car) should.
:>
: I'm waiting until I can afford to find a proper old skool SWB aircooled
: 911 "idiot killer". I want a car that I can respect.
Hmmm, something like a '67 with a Chevy V8 mounted in it? ;-)
--
John Nelson
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page
http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org
(A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell) |
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Steven Grauman
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:24 pm Post subject:
Re: The Cayman, Porsche's Frankenstein! |
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I really don't think this should be a debate over WHY the Caymen's time
is quicker than the 911's, if it had something to do with who's behind
the wheel, or if it detracts from the desireability of the 911. In my
mind, the bottom line is this: The Boxster and Caymen models obviously
have a lot of built-in potential that's not being realized because the
gurus at Porsche seem to feel like the 911 needs protecting. If Porsche
would drop this idiotic idealogy than we could see a considerablly
greater level of performance from the model, which I think is becoming
painfully neccesary considering how close the C6 Corvette can come to a
new 911 on the track, with a base price around $52,000. Porsche NEEDS a
higher performing car at the $45-55k price point, and unless they're
willing to seriously consider 8-cylinder motors for the 911s, that's
going to mean building a car that can eclipse the 911's performance for
less money. I'm not saying I want a Corvette (I still think it's ugly
and I still think the interior is it's biggest fault), but there's a
lot competiton these days, and Porsche is expected to make or beat par
for the course. |
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Holden McThynge
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:13 pm Post subject:
Re: The Cayman, Porsche's Frankenstein! |
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"Chicago Paddling-Fishing" <jwn@ripco.com> wrote in message
news:d7k5pm$4bk$2@e250.ripco.com...
:
: Hmmm, something like a '67 with a Chevy V8 mounted in it? ;-)
a friend has a very nice '64 XKE with a small block Ford V8... He likes it
very much.
and just as a rhetorical question... why not hot rodding a Porsche? They're
made in sufficient quantity that it's not sacrilege like chopping up a
Cadillac V16 or a Bugatti or Maybach... |
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Steven Grauman
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:14 am Post subject:
Re: The Cayman, Porsche's Frankenstein! |
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<<and just as a rhetorical question... why not hot rodding a Porsche?>>
Because it's a Porsche, and should command enough respect not to be
butchered with an American crate motor.
<<They're
made in sufficient quantity that it's not sacrilege like chopping up a
Cadillac V16 or a Bugatti or Maybach...>>
They're not built in that high a quantity. If you want a muscle car
with decent handling, get a C4 Corvette, upgrade the suspension and
brake components and throw some bolt-ons under the hood. |
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Eza Gadson
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:20 am Post subject:
Re: The Cayman, Porsche's Frankenstein! |
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Amen.
On 6/1/05 4:24 AM, in article
1117614280.299613.240720@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "Steven Grauman"
<OneActor1@aol.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I really don't think this should be a debate over WHY the Caymen's time
is quicker than the 911's, if it had something to do with who's behind
the wheel, or if it detracts from the desireability of the 911. In my
mind, the bottom line is this: The Boxster and Caymen models obviously
have a lot of built-in potential that's not being realized because the
gurus at Porsche seem to feel like the 911 needs protecting. If Porsche
would drop this idiotic idealogy than we could see a considerablly
greater level of performance from the model, which I think is becoming
painfully neccesary considering how close the C6 Corvette can come to a
new 911 on the track, with a base price around $52,000. Porsche NEEDS a
higher performing car at the $45-55k price point, and unless they're
willing to seriously consider 8-cylinder motors for the 911s, that's
going to mean building a car that can eclipse the 911's performance for
less money. I'm not saying I want a Corvette (I still think it's ugly
and I still think the interior is it's biggest fault), but there's a
lot competiton these days, and Porsche is expected to make or beat par
for the course.
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Chicago Paddling-Fishing
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:52 am Post subject:
Re: The Cayman, Porsche's Frankenstein! |
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Holden McThynge <holden_mcthynge@hotmail.com> wrote:
: "Chicago Paddling-Fishing" <jwn@ripco.com> wrote in message
: news:d7k5pm$4bk$2@e250.ripco.com...
: :
: : Hmmm, something like a '67 with a Chevy V8 mounted in it? ;-)
: a friend has a very nice '64 XKE with a small block Ford V8... He likes it
: very much.
: and just as a rhetorical question... why not hot rodding a Porsche? They're
: made in sufficient quantity that it's not sacrilege like chopping up a
: Cadillac V16 or a Bugatti or Maybach...
Well... I was just being a smartalec with the 67... short wheelbase had
trouble with a flat 6 hanging back there... toss a heavy V8 back there and it
would probably make a nice wheelie machine, but you might need a set of
trailing wheels to keep it from going over front to back...
The Jag would be different since it had a front end designed to take a V12,
course every lotus I've looked at has had gauges that don't work and I'm
constantly cautioned that it won't be as dependable as my Porsche... funny
thing is, most 10 year old Porsches have 100k miles on them, most 10 year
old Lotus have 33k, and it seems to be for a reason... (I had a Triumph TR6
once... I soon learned why it only had 56k miles on it...) People selling
199x Elans always tout that it has a dependable Japanese motor in it, not a
Lotus motor).
--
John Nelson
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page
http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org
(A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell) |
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Chicago Paddling-Fishing
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:57 am Post subject:
Re: The Cayman, Porsche's Frankenstein! |
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Steven Grauman <OneActor1@aol.com> wrote:
: The 295 Horsepower car WILL be the Caymen S. A less powerful version,
<snip>
However, if they put the same motor in it as the 911, it would probably
outhandle the 911 just fine... If your going to field a car, then put
out the best car you can... forget this ...We can't compete with our other
models... it's only going to cost them to produce so many different model
6's....
Kinda like IBM with their PCjr... in the long run, it only hurt IBM.
They should also come out with a hi performance 4... give them a few more
classes to race in again... those 914's and 951's are aging and the new
Lotus doesn't look too bad...
--
John Nelson
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page
http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org
(A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell) |
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Holden McThynge
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:44 pm Post subject:
Re: The Cayman, Porsche's Frankenstein! |
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"Steven Grauman" <OneActor1@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1117664643.429760.102310@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
:
: Because it's a Porsche, and should command enough respect not to be
: butchered with an American crate motor.
those crate engines make a bunch of HP
:
: <<They're
: made in sufficient quantity that it's not sacrilege like chopping up a
: Cadillac V16 or a Bugatti or Maybach...>>
:
: They're not built in that high a quantity.
I own one, an 03 Cabrio 996, really nice, but it's mass produced, just in
lesser quantities. Look I haven't had so much fun with a motor vehicle
since I had a Honda VF750F, but a Porsche 996 is not art work, it's a
bloomin' mass produced automobile... |
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Holden McThynge
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:56 pm Post subject:
Re: The Cayman, Porsche's Frankenstein! |
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"Chicago Paddling-Fishing" <jwn@ripco.com> wrote in message
news:d7mksg$lgl$3@e250.ripco.com...
:
: Well... I was just being a smartalec with the 67... short wheelbase had
: trouble with a flat 6 hanging back there... toss a heavy V8 back there and
it
: would probably make a nice wheelie machine
I absolutly remember seeing a custom 70's Porsche 911 with a Chevy engine
crammed into the *Motorraum* with two 4 barrel carbs and straight chrome
intakes for each barrel... As you say, at the time I thought it looked a
bit heavy (maybe they had an aluminum block. It's been thirty years or so).
: The Jag would be different since it had a front end designed to take a
V12,
: course every lotus I've looked at has had gauges that don't work and I'm
: constantly cautioned that it won't be as dependable as my Porsche...
My pal's Jag looks stock and seems to run like a dream. He's happy, so
there you go.
:(I had a Triumph TR6 once... I soon learned why it only had 56k miles on
it...)
The TR6 was a nice looking ride. Drug dealer I once knew bought one (Red,
black interior) when they first came out and drove it down to Miami to pick
up a consignment fresh from the docks. It suffered a mechanical failure on
I95 somewhere south of Jacksonville on the return trip. I suppose he's out
of jail by now. |
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Jim Keenan
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:13 am Post subject:
Re: The Cayman, Porsche's Frankenstein! |
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"Holden McThynge" <holden_mcthynge@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d7nggd$kvl$02$1@news.t-online.com...
| Quote: |
I own one, an 03 Cabrio 996, really nice, but it's mass produced, just in
lesser quantities. Look I haven't had so much fun with a motor vehicle
since I had a Honda VF750F, but a Porsche 996 is not art work, it's a
bloomin' mass produced automobile...
|
In fiscal 2003/2004 Porsche built 81,531 vehicles: 41,149 Cayennes, 270
Carrera GTs,
13,462 Boxsters and 26,650 Carreras.
BMW built 1,059,000+ vehicles in 2004 - that's mass produced. |
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Steven Grauman
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:44 pm Post subject:
Re: The Cayman, Porsche's Frankenstein! |
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<<those crate engines make a bunch of HP>>
If the horsepower number is all that concerns you, please sell your 996
and find a nice 1969-1970 Chevelle SS 454 with the LS6 variant of the
454 motor. Classic car, 450 horsepower, should suit you nicely.
<<I own one, an 03 Cabrio 996, really nice, but it's mass produced,
just in
lesser quantities. Look I haven't had so much fun with a motor vehicle
since I had a Honda VF750F, but a Porsche 996 is not art work, it's a
bloomin' mass produced automobile...>>
The Honda Accord and Toyota Camry as mass-produced, the Ford Explorer
and Taurus are mass-produced. The 996 is the mostly highly produced
semi-exotic in the world. But there aren't all that many of them in
reality. In 15-20 years it'll be much harder to find one than it is
now. A Porsche is a Porsche, not a Chevrolet or Ford, not a chopped
Model-A or a 1964 Impala, not a Honda Civic or Nissan Sentra SE-R.
There's no reason to chop one up with some ridiculous massive, domestic
V8. You'll ruin it's sound, it's feel, it's handling, everything that
makes it what it is - it's sacrilige. A 1994 Corvette ZR-1 has pretty
good handling, it has a 5.7 litre, 405 horsepower, DOHC, 32-valve,
all-aluminum LT5 V8 too, custom designed from bottom up just for the
ZR1. And you can get one for under $30k if you look hard. Buy one,
throw an Eibach pro-kit Plus suspension system on it, some minor brake
upgrades, sticky tires, an intake/exhuast combo. You'll have a fast,
reasoablly well behaved V8 sports car, exactly what you want, without
spending a fortune and without canabalizing a Porsche. |
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