| Author |
Message |
GRL
Guest
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 Posted:
Sun Nov 28, 2004 5:41 am Post subject:
Re: BMW diesels for Cadillac? |
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Hey, don't give them any goofy ideas. They might think your suggestion
represents pent-up demand and go for it.
GRL
"Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:30sfq5F33r5lbU1@uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: |
"Matt O'Toole" <matt@deltanet.com> wrote in message
news:30rv16F34ioovU1@uni-berlin.de...
Ramone Cila wrote:
"Frank Kemper" <spam-muelleimer@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:Xns95AE9D2F92D84eldosampleman@130.133.1.4...
Even BMW knows bettter how to
make impressive Diesel engines, although they only have two decades
of Diesel history.
There is nobody particularly smarter or more inventive than anyone
else in the automotive industry. The market dictates what any given
manufacturer can afford to spend on any given component. Just because
BMW doesn't make US style pick-up trucks is one to assume that they
haven't the know-how or capability to build one as good as a Ford
Super Duty?
Yes, at least for a little while. At the very least it takes a couple
of
years
to play catch up -- to get all the right people, and get them working
together.
Matt O.
For all we know BMW might have been working on a Super Duper Duty Dump
Truck
with 2600 hp triple turbo supercooled uncommon rail diesel for the last
five years and when launched it will blow all rivals away, if not drive
straight over the top of them at the first attempt.
Huw
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GRL
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Nov 28, 2004 5:41 am Post subject:
Re: BMW diesels for Cadillac? |
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Let's be serious. There are things BMW can do, and there are things they
can't.
They make sedans that are, largely, the most fun to drive. They make
mediocre, space inefficient, SUV's. The cannot match Japanese manufacturers
for reliability/low maintenance and likely never will (they've had 15 years
since the first LS400 appeared and they still can't match Lexus reliability,
though, thanks to Lexus rubbing their nose in it, so to speak, they have
improved a lot). They cannot build and sell a sedan in the mid- $20K range
that people will buy. They can't bring themselves to sell a diesel in the
U.S.
George
"Matt O'Toole" <matt@deltanet.com> wrote in message
news:30sgs6F32j6etU2@uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: | Huw wrote:
For all we know BMW might have been working on a Super Duper Duty
Dump Truck with 2600 hp triple turbo supercooled uncommon rail diesel
for the last five years and when launched it will blow all rivals
away, if not drive straight over the top of them at the first attempt.
Honda did this with the original CRX. No one knew about it until it
debuted.
It was a revolutionary car in that it went from inception to showroom in
18
months. It left everyone else scratching their heads thinking, "Geez,
how'd
they do that?" Also, "If they can do that, they'll be kicking our butts."
Which
they did.
Being privately held, BMW could do this as well as anyone, but it hasn't
been
their style.
Matt O.
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Andrew Thomas
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:46 pm Post subject:
Re: BMW diesels for Cadillac? |
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"GRL" <GLitwinski@CHARTERMI.NET> wrote in message news:<Jw9qd.22488$gE4.535@fe07.lga>...
| Quote: | Let's be serious. There are things BMW can do, and there are things they
can't.
.... |
| Quote: | They cannot build and sell a sedan in the mid- $20K range
that people will buy.
|
BMW is quite capable of doing that (although with the US dollar at
record lows, $25,000 might be a bit tight these days). The problem is
at this price level the car would have a smaller engine and less
grunt, and American consumers don't like anything less than 200 bhp (I
guess they need it for all those derestricted interstates :)).
| Quote: | They can't bring themselves to sell a diesel in the
U.S.
|
Yup. It's partly an image thing (remarkable, really, the differences
across the pond - BMW's image on this side has if anything been
improved by the good standing of its diesel models), but also diesel
grade. Apparently BMW is waiting for lower sulphur levels to be
mandated in the diesel available at North American pumps; then it will
likely bring in its SUVs with one or two diesel engines (which are far
better suited to this application than the petrols).
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daytripper
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 1:58 am Post subject:
Re: BMW diesels for Cadillac? |
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On 28 Nov 2004 03:46:30 -0800, andrewj_nospamthomas@yahoo.com.au (Andrew
Thomas) wrote:
| Quote: | "GRL" <GLitwinski@CHARTERMI.NET> wrote in message news:<Jw9qd.22488$gE4.535@fe07.lga>...
Let's be serious. There are things BMW can do, and there are things they
can't.
...
They cannot build and sell a sedan in the mid- $20K range
that people will buy.
BMW is quite capable of doing that (although with the US dollar at
record lows, $25,000 might be a bit tight these days). The problem is
at this price level the car would have a smaller engine and less
grunt, and American consumers don't like anything less than 200 bhp (I
guess they need it for all those derestricted interstates :)).
They can't bring themselves to sell a diesel in the
U.S.
Yup. It's partly an image thing (remarkable, really, the differences
across the pond - BMW's image on this side has if anything been
improved by the good standing of its diesel models), but also diesel
grade. Apparently BMW is waiting for lower sulphur levels to be
mandated in the diesel available at North American pumps; then it will
likely bring in its SUVs with one or two diesel engines (which are far
better suited to this application than the petrols).
|
They may also be waiting for state legislation to ease enough to actually sell
diesel *cars* in the USA. I don't believe CA and MA, for two, make it easy if
even possible to sell diesel automobiles (as opposed to trucks)... |
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GRL
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:26 am Post subject:
Re: BMW diesels for Cadillac? |
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They tried selling a mid-20's truncated 2-door hatchback version of the old
3-series in the early '90's BEFORE the fall of the dollar. It was a dismal
failure, as it deserved to be. I suppose they will try it again with a 1 or
2-series, but I predict those will end up being low 30's cars, at best.
BMW's problem is that they have gotten away with charging too much for their
cars for so long, that they never learned how to operate very efficiently,
didn't have to. The problem with that is they say they want to be a broad
product line company.
George Litwinski"daytripper" <day_trippr@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3sekq09pe608ag43uuvd7jfflr63s6ekeg@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On 28 Nov 2004 03:46:30 -0800, andrewj_nospamthomas@yahoo.com.au (Andrew
Thomas) wrote:
"GRL" <GLitwinski@CHARTERMI.NET> wrote in message
news:<Jw9qd.22488$gE4.535@fe07.lga>...
Let's be serious. There are things BMW can do, and there are things
they
can't.
...
They cannot build and sell a sedan in the mid- $20K range
that people will buy.
BMW is quite capable of doing that (although with the US dollar at
record lows, $25,000 might be a bit tight these days). The problem is
at this price level the car would have a smaller engine and less
grunt, and American consumers don't like anything less than 200 bhp (I
guess they need it for all those derestricted interstates :)).
They can't bring themselves to sell a diesel in the
U.S.
Yup. It's partly an image thing (remarkable, really, the differences
across the pond - BMW's image on this side has if anything been
improved by the good standing of its diesel models), but also diesel
grade. Apparently BMW is waiting for lower sulphur levels to be
mandated in the diesel available at North American pumps; then it will
likely bring in its SUVs with one or two diesel engines (which are far
better suited to this application than the petrols).
They may also be waiting for state legislation to ease enough to actually
sell
diesel *cars* in the USA. I don't believe CA and MA, for two, make it easy
if
even possible to sell diesel automobiles (as opposed to trucks)... |
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GRL
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 3:27 am Post subject:
Re: BMW diesels for Cadillac? |
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How does MB manage to do it?
George Litwinski
"daytripper" <day_trippr@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3sekq09pe608ag43uuvd7jfflr63s6ekeg@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On 28 Nov 2004 03:46:30 -0800, andrewj_nospamthomas@yahoo.com.au (Andrew
Thomas) wrote:
"GRL" <GLitwinski@CHARTERMI.NET> wrote in message
news:<Jw9qd.22488$gE4.535@fe07.lga>...
Let's be serious. There are things BMW can do, and there are things
they
can't.
...
They cannot build and sell a sedan in the mid- $20K range
that people will buy.
BMW is quite capable of doing that (although with the US dollar at
record lows, $25,000 might be a bit tight these days). The problem is
at this price level the car would have a smaller engine and less
grunt, and American consumers don't like anything less than 200 bhp (I
guess they need it for all those derestricted interstates :)).
They can't bring themselves to sell a diesel in the
U.S.
Yup. It's partly an image thing (remarkable, really, the differences
across the pond - BMW's image on this side has if anything been
improved by the good standing of its diesel models), but also diesel
grade. Apparently BMW is waiting for lower sulphur levels to be
mandated in the diesel available at North American pumps; then it will
likely bring in its SUVs with one or two diesel engines (which are far
better suited to this application than the petrols).
They may also be waiting for state legislation to ease enough to actually
sell
diesel *cars* in the USA. I don't believe CA and MA, for two, make it easy
if
even possible to sell diesel automobiles (as opposed to trucks)... |
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Huw
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:02 am Post subject:
Re: BMW diesels for Cadillac? |
|
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"GRL" <GLitwinski@CHARTERMI.NET> wrote in message
news:Clsqd.23410$UF.12947@fe07.lga...
| Quote: | They tried selling a mid-20's truncated 2-door hatchback version of the
old
3-series in the early '90's BEFORE the fall of the dollar. It was a dismal
failure, as it deserved to be. I suppose they will try it again with a 1
or
2-series, but I predict those will end up being low 30's cars, at best.
BMW's problem is that they have gotten away with charging too much for
their
cars for so long, that they never learned how to operate very efficiently,
didn't have to. The problem with that is they say they want to be a broad
product line company.
|
Almost anything imported from Europe to the US will be expensive given the
state of the Dollar. It will make European exports of everything less than
luxury, high margin, goods less than viable. OTOH it makes importing
American cars to Europe very viable if only they produced something we
wanted. Jeep should do well in Europe for a while I would imagine.
Huw |
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GRL
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:40 am Post subject:
Re: BMW diesels for Cadillac? |
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Actually, we do: Corvettes, some Caddies, some Jeeps...even some Bimmers
and Mercs.
The low dollar effect is real, but not overwhelming...and when it comes back
up (it will as our interest rates go up), BMW STILL will not be able to sell
a mid-20's sedan that anyone will want to buy. Or so I think.
George Litwinski
"Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:30v3o0F35qlusU1@uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: |
"GRL" <GLitwinski@CHARTERMI.NET> wrote in message
news:Clsqd.23410$UF.12947@fe07.lga...
They tried selling a mid-20's truncated 2-door hatchback version of the
old
3-series in the early '90's BEFORE the fall of the dollar. It was a
dismal
failure, as it deserved to be. I suppose they will try it again with a 1
or
2-series, but I predict those will end up being low 30's cars, at best.
BMW's problem is that they have gotten away with charging too much for
their
cars for so long, that they never learned how to operate very
efficiently,
didn't have to. The problem with that is they say they want to be a
broad
product line company.
Almost anything imported from Europe to the US will be expensive given the
state of the Dollar. It will make European exports of everything less than
luxury, high margin, goods less than viable. OTOH it makes importing
American cars to Europe very viable if only they produced something we
wanted. Jeep should do well in Europe for a while I would imagine.
Huw
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daytripper
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:42 am Post subject:
Re: BMW diesels for Cadillac? |
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|
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:27:08 -0500, "GRL" <GLitwinski@CHARTERMI.NET> wrote:
| Quote: | "daytripper" <day_trippr@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3sekq09pe608ag43uuvd7jfflr63s6ekeg@4ax.com...
On 28 Nov 2004 03:46:30 -0800, andrewj_nospamthomas@yahoo.com.au (Andrew
Thomas) wrote:
"GRL" <GLitwinski@CHARTERMI.NET> wrote in message
news:<Jw9qd.22488$gE4.535@fe07.lga>...
Let's be serious. There are things BMW can do, and there are things
they
can't.
...
They cannot build and sell a sedan in the mid- $20K range
that people will buy.
BMW is quite capable of doing that (although with the US dollar at
record lows, $25,000 might be a bit tight these days). The problem is
at this price level the car would have a smaller engine and less
grunt, and American consumers don't like anything less than 200 bhp (I
guess they need it for all those derestricted interstates :)).
They can't bring themselves to sell a diesel in the
U.S.
Yup. It's partly an image thing (remarkable, really, the differences
across the pond - BMW's image on this side has if anything been
improved by the good standing of its diesel models), but also diesel
grade. Apparently BMW is waiting for lower sulphur levels to be
mandated in the diesel available at North American pumps; then it will
likely bring in its SUVs with one or two diesel engines (which are far
better suited to this application than the petrols).
They may also be waiting for state legislation to ease enough to actually
sell diesel *cars* in the USA. I don't believe CA and MA, for two, make it easy
if even possible to sell diesel automobiles (as opposed to trucks)...
How does MB manage to do it?
|
MB's *only* USA diesel passenger model listed today is the E320 CDI, so it's
not like diesels represent much of a profit center for MB in the USA. And it
isn't obvious that this model could actually be registered in CA or MA... |
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GRL
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:42 am Post subject:
Re: BMW diesels for Cadillac? |
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It can't be sold in either place, but MB still realizes that leaves a whole
lot of the rest of the country. Plus the low sulfur diesel we are mandated
to get in a few years will make if 50 state legal.
It is a sweet unit. Drove one this summer. Excellent smoothness and
acceleration. From inside, you can't tell it's a diesel.
George Litwinski
"daytripper" <day_trippr@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:39vkq09k228hilu7dnmdgnqk8srhtfgjf8@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:27:08 -0500, "GRL" <GLitwinski@CHARTERMI.NET
wrote:
"daytripper" <day_trippr@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3sekq09pe608ag43uuvd7jfflr63s6ekeg@4ax.com...
On 28 Nov 2004 03:46:30 -0800, andrewj_nospamthomas@yahoo.com.au
(Andrew
Thomas) wrote:
"GRL" <GLitwinski@CHARTERMI.NET> wrote in message
news:<Jw9qd.22488$gE4.535@fe07.lga>...
Let's be serious. There are things BMW can do, and there are things
they
can't.
...
They cannot build and sell a sedan in the mid- $20K range
that people will buy.
BMW is quite capable of doing that (although with the US dollar at
record lows, $25,000 might be a bit tight these days). The problem is
at this price level the car would have a smaller engine and less
grunt, and American consumers don't like anything less than 200 bhp (I
guess they need it for all those derestricted interstates :)).
They can't bring themselves to sell a diesel in the
U.S.
Yup. It's partly an image thing (remarkable, really, the differences
across the pond - BMW's image on this side has if anything been
improved by the good standing of its diesel models), but also diesel
grade. Apparently BMW is waiting for lower sulphur levels to be
mandated in the diesel available at North American pumps; then it will
likely bring in its SUVs with one or two diesel engines (which are far
better suited to this application than the petrols).
They may also be waiting for state legislation to ease enough to
actually
sell diesel *cars* in the USA. I don't believe CA and MA, for two, make
it easy
if even possible to sell diesel automobiles (as opposed to trucks)...
How does MB manage to do it?
MB's *only* USA diesel passenger model listed today is the E320 CDI, so
it's
not like diesels represent much of a profit center for MB in the USA. And
it
isn't obvious that this model could actually be registered in CA or MA... |
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Vernon Balbert
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:42 am Post subject:
Re: BMW diesels for Cadillac? |
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It's interesting that nobody has pointed out that diesel fuel in the
U.S. does not have a lot of availability. Most gas stations (at least
in California and Oregon) don't carry diesel. Maybe one in eight or ten
does.
Diesel has gotten a bad rap, especially on the west coast. The public's
perception is that the exhaust is dirtier than gasoline exhaust. Which
is why the tax on it is higher so that the price is pretty much the same
as regular gas even though the fuel itself is cheaper than gas.
Vern |
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Somebody
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:42 am Post subject:
Re: BMW diesels for Cadillac? |
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"GRL" <GLitwinski@CHARTERMI.NET> wrote in message
news:jmsqd.23412$Ix7.4571@fe07.lga...
| Quote: | How does MB manage to do it?
|
VW does a brisk business with the TDI models of the bug, Jetta, Golf,
Passat. They're no BMWs, but they're not cheap, and they are German.
-Russ. |
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Dave Plowman (News)
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:22 am Post subject:
Re: BMW diesels for Cadillac? |
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|
In article <A_wqd.26282$zx1.128@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>,
Vernon Balbert <vbalbert@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | It's interesting that nobody has pointed out that diesel fuel in the
U.S. does not have a lot of availability. Most gas stations (at least
in California and Oregon) don't carry diesel. Maybe one in eight or ten
does.
|
Does this mean all trucks are petrol? Or do they use different filling
stations?
| Quote: | Diesel has gotten a bad rap, especially on the west coast. The public's
perception is that the exhaust is dirtier than gasoline exhaust. Which
is why the tax on it is higher so that the price is pretty much the same
as regular gas even though the fuel itself is cheaper than gas.
|
The public are right. In the UK, even with its better fuel, you can still
smell a diesel - and it's not that pleasant. And many will still smoke
quite badly on full throttle.
However, I'm not judging the harm of the emissions from either - I'll
leave that to others.
One local council uses LPG for all its vehicles. Things like dustcarts
(refuse vehicles?) that spend a lot of time idling and moving slowly down
residential streets. And appear to have totally clean exhausts - to my
nose at least.
--
*To steal ideas from *one* person is plagiarism; from many, research*
Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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Matt O'Toole
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:49 am Post subject:
Re: BMW diesels for Cadillac? |
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daytripper wrote:
| Quote: | They may also be waiting for state legislation to ease enough to
actually sell diesel *cars* in the USA. I don't believe CA and MA,
for two, make it easy if even possible to sell diesel automobiles (as
opposed to trucks)...
|
This is true, and it's a big problem because those two states, plus NY, are
BMW's biggest markets. But this situation will probably change in 2006, when
low-sulphur diesel becomes available. Then auto diesels can more easily meet
CARB standards. (California Air Resources Board, whose standards have also been
adopted by MA and NY)
Matt O. |
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Dave Plowman (News)
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 29, 2004 11:52 am Post subject:
Re: BMW diesels for Cadillac? |
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|
In article <41ab012f$0$16585$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com>,
Dori A Schmetterling <ng@nospam.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | What is interesting for me is that BMW were very late into diesels and
yet when they did get going they were pretty good, immediately giving
Merc a run for their money.
|
Perhaps learning from them?
Honda have just produced their first (car?) diesel, and it's said to be a
cracker.
--
*Caution: I drive like you do.
Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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