| Author |
Message |
Acru Fox
Guest
|
 Posted:
Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:08 pm Post subject:
Two different garages...one fixed it the other didn't...what |
|
|
I took my 1994 Buick Lesabre into the dealership and left it with the Buick
garage and I got the car late this afternoon (all along I thought it was the
PCM, all the various problems which were somewhat related only by one
thing...all connected through the PCM, power loss to the car, battery light
always on, cruise refusing to stay engaged, pulsing lighting in the dash,
sluggish engine performance, even the headlights on the car were dim,
including the car refusing to stay running after starting.)Sure enough it
was the PCM. (main computer under passenger side, some call it the ECM)
That being said, the other garage I first took it to was not Buick (had
positive experiences in the past) to fix this problem failure to remain
running after starting... they decided to rip me a new one at the tune of
$600+ for replacing the passkey module to fix the problem which ultimately
did not resolve the problem! After talking to people from various sites and
at buick, I've pretty much come to the conclusion the passkey module
controls both gas flow and the engine turning over. Now when I first got the
car towed to them it turned over like a charm! No matter how many times I
tried starting it, it wouldn't start! The more I tried, the more I smelled
gas, so that right there rules out a faulty passkey module, the engine was
getting gas and it was turning over.
The non Buick garage charged me $600 the first time and I got stranded from
the same problem at work a few weeks later and had to get the car towed
after they supposedly "fixed it" The second time they looked at it, the car
started working again so for the heck of it, tacked another $100 to the bill
that they couldn't find a thing wrong. I had to get the car towed AGAIN this
week and decided to go to Buick this time and now the problem is actually
fixed and I've never seen the car run this nicely.
I am on a payment plan with these people and have not yet begun to pay them,
what options do I have open to me? What can I do to pursue this garage
because they didn't fix the problem! I'm being charged for tests, labor, and
most importantly an expensive passkey module that did NOT need replacing!
Even more importantly, even before I got them to work on the car, I told
them I suspected a faulty PCM after reading up on the problem, and they blew
me off saying it couldn't possibly be that and didn't even bother to check.
After being towed twice after being "fixed" and charged $600 for something
that wasn't the culprit, how can I deal with these people that they can't
shaft me with the ole "it's a combination of a faulty PCM and passkey module
that resulted in your car not starting.
Because if indeed this passkey module does control both gas and engine
turnover, I didn't have a problem with either one! The car would simply die
right after letting the key return to the running position after hearing the
engine running.
I would really appreciate some input on what options are open to me and what
evidence I need to gather to prove my case.
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el Diablo
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 24, 2004 11:33 pm Post subject:
Re: Two different garages...one fixed it the other didn't... |
|
|
"Acru Fox" <acrufox(nospam)@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:AcYod.9404$1B2.5465@trnddc02...
| Quote: | I took my 1994 Buick Lesabre into the dealership and left it with the
Buick
garage and I got the car late this afternoon (all along I thought it was
the
PCM, all the various problems which were somewhat related only by one
thing...all connected through the PCM, power loss to the car, battery
light
always on, cruise refusing to stay engaged, pulsing lighting in the dash,
sluggish engine performance, even the headlights on the car were dim,
including the car refusing to stay running after starting.)Sure enough it
was the PCM. (main computer under passenger side, some call it the ECM)
That being said, the other garage I first took it to was not Buick (had
positive experiences in the past) to fix this problem failure to remain
running after starting... they decided to rip me a new one at the tune of
$600+ for replacing the passkey module to fix the problem which ultimately
did not resolve the problem! After talking to people from various sites
and
at buick, I've pretty much come to the conclusion the passkey module
controls both gas flow and the engine turning over. Now when I first got
the
car towed to them it turned over like a charm! No matter how many times I
tried starting it, it wouldn't start! The more I tried, the more I smelled
gas, so that right there rules out a faulty passkey module, the engine was
getting gas and it was turning over.
The non Buick garage charged me $600 the first time and I got stranded
from
the same problem at work a few weeks later and had to get the car towed
after they supposedly "fixed it" The second time they looked at it, the
car
started working again so for the heck of it, tacked another $100 to the
bill
that they couldn't find a thing wrong. I had to get the car towed AGAIN
this
week and decided to go to Buick this time and now the problem is actually
fixed and I've never seen the car run this nicely.
I am on a payment plan with these people and have not yet begun to pay
them,
what options do I have open to me? What can I do to pursue this garage
because they didn't fix the problem! I'm being charged for tests, labor,
and
most importantly an expensive passkey module that did NOT need replacing!
Even more importantly, even before I got them to work on the car, I told
them I suspected a faulty PCM after reading up on the problem, and they
blew
me off saying it couldn't possibly be that and didn't even bother to
check.
After being towed twice after being "fixed" and charged $600 for something
that wasn't the culprit, how can I deal with these people that they can't
shaft me with the ole "it's a combination of a faulty PCM and passkey
module
that resulted in your car not starting.
Because if indeed this passkey module does control both gas and engine
turnover, I didn't have a problem with either one! The car would simply
die
right after letting the key return to the running position after hearing
the
engine running.
I would really appreciate some input on what options are open to me and
what
evidence I need to gather to prove my case.
|
Once you have a garage (whom you obviously must do a lot of business with, -
a payment plan?) selected to repair your vehicle you've locked your self in
to dealing with them once the repairs start. Now that being said if you go
to them and tell them they didn't fix the car and you took it else where
their most probable response is going to be "You should have brought it back
to us".
So I really doubt that they will accommodate you regardless of any evidence
that you have, unless your relationship with them is that good. Once you
agreed to pay them and then decided on your own to not involve them with the
ultimate solution of the car you basically gave up any recourse that you had
with them.
If it were me and if they are letting you make payments they must know you
pretty well, I'd go and discuss the issue with them and try to settle on a
lesser amount to pay. If you decide to not pay them they can haul you into
court where the judge will decide who is at fault. And to the judge you
stuck them with a repair bill regardless of who finally fixed the vehicle.
my 2 cents
Brian |
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Acru Fox
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:33 am Post subject:
Re: Two different garages...one fixed it the other didn't... |
|
|
Yes but I DID take it back to them after it happened again for a second
time, they just simply told me, it worked fine, here we're tacking on
another $100, I shouldn't have had to pay for that, it was taken in for the
SAME problem. I don't have the funds to keep taking in the car to the same
people when they don't fix it and tell me not to worry, it's been towed
TWICE since they "fixed" it. They gave me a short period of time where they
had a warranty on their work, what's the point in taking it back to them
after their flimsy 30 day warranty runs out? After it occurred a 2nd time it
was getting close to the end of the one month warranty, the third time it
occurred outside that time frame.
I talked with them after the 2nd tow and they said the owner would get in
contact with me, and NEVER did, it by that point had run for a few weeks and
I left it at that. When you are at $700 and they are just randomly
replacing parts on the car and you get stranded for the THIRD time and pay
for yet another tow for the exact same problem I don't feel obligated to
stay locked in with them for yet another "repair" and get stranded yet
again. I cannot afford to constantly call into work and use the same excuse
"I can't come in again, car troubles" I am getting sick and tired of taking
time off to go to state farm to file for a refund for towing and then going
to the bank. I am now on a first name basis with my insurance company, and
they right off the bat know why I am there yet again.
The car had so many problems before the computer was replaced, now that it's
replaced it runs like a brand new car, nothing is broken now. I had 5-6
known problems these people knew about as I had told them, but they did not
put 1+1 together to think just for a second, all these problems had one
thing in common, all were connected to the ECM. When I initially took it
into them, it was for driving along, suddenly all electrical power to the
car died and I was coasting, their diagnosis? A bad battery connection,
comeon now, I've had cars jumped where I disconnected the battery from the
system and it ran just fine with no battery.
These people obviously cannot properly repair a Buick, they told me "oh it
could never be the ECM, the ECM's never go in those cars, I've never had to
replace an ECM, it couldn't possibly by that" When they are so hell bent on
not listening to you and you are proven to be correct all along, you start
questioning the validity of paying these people for something never fixed,
that the customer is NEVER right.
| Quote: |
Once you have a garage (whom you obviously must do a lot of business
with, -
a payment plan?) selected to repair your vehicle you've locked your self
in
to dealing with them once the repairs start. Now that being said if you go
to them and tell them they didn't fix the car and you took it else where
their most probable response is going to be "You should have brought it
back
to us".
So I really doubt that they will accommodate you regardless of any
evidence
that you have, unless your relationship with them is that good. Once you
agreed to pay them and then decided on your own to not involve them with
the
ultimate solution of the car you basically gave up any recourse that you
had
with them.
If it were me and if they are letting you make payments they must know you
pretty well, I'd go and discuss the issue with them and try to settle on a
lesser amount to pay. If you decide to not pay them they can haul you into
court where the judge will decide who is at fault. And to the judge you
stuck them with a repair bill regardless of who finally fixed the vehicle.
my 2 cents
Brian
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el Diablo
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:32 am Post subject:
Re: Two different garages...one fixed it the other didn't... |
|
|
"Acru Fox" <acrufox(nospam)@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dm5pd.6498$ld2.2815@trnddc05...
| Quote: | Yes but I DID take it back to them after it happened again for a second
time, they just simply told me, it worked fine, here we're tacking on
another $100, I shouldn't have had to pay for that, it was taken in for
the
SAME problem. I don't have the funds to keep taking in the car to the same
people when they don't fix it and tell me not to worry, it's been towed
TWICE since they "fixed" it. They gave me a short period of time where
they
had a warranty on their work, what's the point in taking it back to them
after their flimsy 30 day warranty runs out? After it occurred a 2nd time
it
was getting close to the end of the one month warranty, the third time it
occurred outside that time frame.
I talked with them after the 2nd tow and they said the owner would get in
contact with me, and NEVER did, it by that point had run for a few weeks
and
I left it at that. When you are at $700 and they are just randomly
replacing parts on the car and you get stranded for the THIRD time and pay
for yet another tow for the exact same problem I don't feel obligated to
stay locked in with them for yet another "repair" and get stranded yet
again. I cannot afford to constantly call into work and use the same
excuse
"I can't come in again, car troubles" I am getting sick and tired of
taking
time off to go to state farm to file for a refund for towing and then
going
to the bank. I am now on a first name basis with my insurance company, and
they right off the bat know why I am there yet again.
The car had so many problems before the computer was replaced, now that
it's
replaced it runs like a brand new car, nothing is broken now. I had 5-6
known problems these people knew about as I had told them, but they did
not
put 1+1 together to think just for a second, all these problems had one
thing in common, all were connected to the ECM. When I initially took it
into them, it was for driving along, suddenly all electrical power to the
car died and I was coasting, their diagnosis? A bad battery connection,
comeon now, I've had cars jumped where I disconnected the battery from the
system and it ran just fine with no battery.
These people obviously cannot properly repair a Buick, they told me "oh it
could never be the ECM, the ECM's never go in those cars, I've never had
to
replace an ECM, it couldn't possibly by that" When they are so hell bent
on
not listening to you and you are proven to be correct all along, you start
questioning the validity of paying these people for something never fixed,
that the customer is NEVER right.
|
I agree with you that you shouldn't have to pay for repairs that aren't
fixed. But you did select them and by doing so gave them the right to do
what they felt was right. Now having said that I agree that they probably
don't have the ability to fix the issues that you had. But you still need to
work it out with them. By not paying the bill and ending up in court your
negotiating is severely limited, as like I said the judge will decide.
If the owner won't call you back track him down, people are much less likely
to take advantage of someone who is assertive.
When I need to have a repair performed that I either can't do, or don't want
to do I take my vehicles to a Chevy dealer near where I work. The first few
times they tried to give me the bums rush and tell me that I needed this and
that. I know enough to tell them that I want only what I want fixed at the
price they quoted me. Now that I've established with them I'm not an easy
mark they only call me during a repair if there is truly a problem.
It's a shame that we have to be that way but remember the old saying, "Buyer
Beware".
Brian |
|
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|
|
Mike Levy
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Nov 25, 2004 3:15 am Post subject:
Re: Two different garages...one fixed it the other didn't... |
|
|
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:32:39 -0500, "el Diablo" <nomail@spam.not>
wrote:
| Quote: |
"Acru Fox" <acrufox(nospam)@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dm5pd.6498$ld2.2815@trnddc05...
Yes but I DID take it back to them after it happened again for a second
time, they just simply told me, it worked fine, here we're tacking on
another $100, I shouldn't have had to pay for that, it was taken in for
the
SAME problem. I don't have the funds to keep taking in the car to the same
people when they don't fix it and tell me not to worry, it's been towed
TWICE since they "fixed" it. They gave me a short period of time where
they
had a warranty on their work, what's the point in taking it back to them
after their flimsy 30 day warranty runs out? After it occurred a 2nd time
it
was getting close to the end of the one month warranty, the third time it
occurred outside that time frame.
I talked with them after the 2nd tow and they said the owner would get in
contact with me, and NEVER did, it by that point had run for a few weeks
and
I left it at that. When you are at $700 and they are just randomly
replacing parts on the car and you get stranded for the THIRD time and pay
for yet another tow for the exact same problem I don't feel obligated to
stay locked in with them for yet another "repair" and get stranded yet
again. I cannot afford to constantly call into work and use the same
excuse
"I can't come in again, car troubles" I am getting sick and tired of
taking
time off to go to state farm to file for a refund for towing and then
going
to the bank. I am now on a first name basis with my insurance company, and
they right off the bat know why I am there yet again.
The car had so many problems before the computer was replaced, now that
it's
replaced it runs like a brand new car, nothing is broken now. I had 5-6
known problems these people knew about as I had told them, but they did
not
put 1+1 together to think just for a second, all these problems had one
thing in common, all were connected to the ECM. When I initially took it
into them, it was for driving along, suddenly all electrical power to the
car died and I was coasting, their diagnosis? A bad battery connection,
comeon now, I've had cars jumped where I disconnected the battery from the
system and it ran just fine with no battery.
These people obviously cannot properly repair a Buick, they told me "oh it
could never be the ECM, the ECM's never go in those cars, I've never had
to
replace an ECM, it couldn't possibly by that" When they are so hell bent
on
not listening to you and you are proven to be correct all along, you start
questioning the validity of paying these people for something never fixed,
that the customer is NEVER right.
I agree with you that you shouldn't have to pay for repairs that aren't
fixed. But you did select them and by doing so gave them the right to do
what they felt was right. Now having said that I agree that they probably
don't have the ability to fix the issues that you had. But you still need to
work it out with them. By not paying the bill and ending up in court your
negotiating is severely limited, as like I said the judge will decide.
If the owner won't call you back track him down, people are much less likely
to take advantage of someone who is assertive.
When I need to have a repair performed that I either can't do, or don't want
to do I take my vehicles to a Chevy dealer near where I work. The first few
times they tried to give me the bums rush and tell me that I needed this and
that. I know enough to tell them that I want only what I want fixed at the
price they quoted me. Now that I've established with them I'm not an easy
mark they only call me during a repair if there is truly a problem.
It's a shame that we have to be that way but remember the old saying, "Buyer
Beware".
Brian
|
I think what the OP is getting at is that considering the problem
wasn't fixed he shouldn't have to pay for the repairs that were
attempted. Consider this: you take you vehicle in for a no fuel
condition, they do some testing and decide the pump is bad so they
replace it. Only to find out that te pump wan't bad, it was some
wiring between the pump and the ECM or the relay. Now, that pump's
been installed, they really can't return it to the shelf, would you
expect to have to pay for that part if it wasn't the actual solution?
I wouldn't like to. In the OP's words (maybe paraphrased), they
"fixed" the vehicle, only to have the problem return, meaning they
really didn't fix it. I wouldn't be happy paying for a repair that
didn't fix my vehicle... |
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|
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el Diablo
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Nov 25, 2004 3:39 am Post subject:
Re: Two different garages...one fixed it the other didn't... |
|
|
"Mike Levy" <mike-newsgroups@levyclan.nospam.us> wrote in message
news:gm1aq097qvel8a43ru2a72jumbuu1l204o@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:32:39 -0500, "el Diablo" <nomail@spam.not
wrote:
"Acru Fox" <acrufox(nospam)@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dm5pd.6498$ld2.2815@trnddc05...
Yes but I DID take it back to them after it happened again for a second
time, they just simply told me, it worked fine, here we're tacking on
another $100, I shouldn't have had to pay for that, it was taken in for
the
SAME problem. I don't have the funds to keep taking in the car to the
same
people when they don't fix it and tell me not to worry, it's been towed
TWICE since they "fixed" it. They gave me a short period of time where
they
had a warranty on their work, what's the point in taking it back to
them
after their flimsy 30 day warranty runs out? After it occurred a 2nd
time
it
was getting close to the end of the one month warranty, the third time
it
occurred outside that time frame.
I talked with them after the 2nd tow and they said the owner would get
in
contact with me, and NEVER did, it by that point had run for a few
weeks
and
I left it at that. When you are at $700 and they are just randomly
replacing parts on the car and you get stranded for the THIRD time and
pay
for yet another tow for the exact same problem I don't feel obligated
to
stay locked in with them for yet another "repair" and get stranded yet
again. I cannot afford to constantly call into work and use the same
excuse
"I can't come in again, car troubles" I am getting sick and tired of
taking
time off to go to state farm to file for a refund for towing and then
going
to the bank. I am now on a first name basis with my insurance company,
and
they right off the bat know why I am there yet again.
The car had so many problems before the computer was replaced, now that
it's
replaced it runs like a brand new car, nothing is broken now. I had 5-6
known problems these people knew about as I had told them, but they did
not
put 1+1 together to think just for a second, all these problems had one
thing in common, all were connected to the ECM. When I initially took
it
into them, it was for driving along, suddenly all electrical power to
the
car died and I was coasting, their diagnosis? A bad battery connection,
comeon now, I've had cars jumped where I disconnected the battery from
the
system and it ran just fine with no battery.
These people obviously cannot properly repair a Buick, they told me "oh
it
could never be the ECM, the ECM's never go in those cars, I've never
had
to
replace an ECM, it couldn't possibly by that" When they are so hell
bent
on
not listening to you and you are proven to be correct all along, you
start
questioning the validity of paying these people for something never
fixed,
that the customer is NEVER right.
I agree with you that you shouldn't have to pay for repairs that aren't
fixed. But you did select them and by doing so gave them the right to do
what they felt was right. Now having said that I agree that they probably
don't have the ability to fix the issues that you had. But you still need
to
work it out with them. By not paying the bill and ending up in court your
negotiating is severely limited, as like I said the judge will decide.
If the owner won't call you back track him down, people are much less
likely
to take advantage of someone who is assertive.
When I need to have a repair performed that I either can't do, or don't
want
to do I take my vehicles to a Chevy dealer near where I work. The first
few
times they tried to give me the bums rush and tell me that I needed this
and
that. I know enough to tell them that I want only what I want fixed at
the
price they quoted me. Now that I've established with them I'm not an easy
mark they only call me during a repair if there is truly a problem.
It's a shame that we have to be that way but remember the old saying,
"Buyer
Beware".
Brian
I think what the OP is getting at is that considering the problem
wasn't fixed he shouldn't have to pay for the repairs that were
attempted. Consider this: you take you vehicle in for a no fuel
condition, they do some testing and decide the pump is bad so they
replace it. Only to find out that te pump wan't bad, it was some
wiring between the pump and the ECM or the relay. Now, that pump's
been installed, they really can't return it to the shelf, would you
expect to have to pay for that part if it wasn't the actual solution?
I wouldn't like to. In the OP's words (maybe paraphrased), they
"fixed" the vehicle, only to have the problem return, meaning they
really didn't fix it. I wouldn't be happy paying for a repair that
didn't fix my vehicle...
|
And I'm in 100% agreement with that as well. But let's change the scenario a
little, he has an agreement to pay the repair bill by payments. There for
it's much easier to go elsewhere when you aren't happy with the service.
Even though he is entitled to get a repaired vehicle for his money, had he
paid the entire repair bill when he picked the car up he wouldn't have never
taken the car elsewhere when the problem reoccurred.
I'm just trying to keep it in perspective. If one would pay for repairs and
then have the problem reoccur they would be back at the same garage to work
it out.
Brian |
|
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|
|
R
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:42 am Post subject:
Re: Two different garages...one fixed it the other didn't... |
|
|
"Acru Fox" <acrufox(nospam)@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:AcYod.9404$1B2.5465@trnddc02...
| Quote: | I took my 1994 Buick Lesabre into the dealership and left it with the
Buick
garage and I got the car late this afternoon (all along I thought it was
the
PCM, all the various problems which were somewhat related only by one
thing...all connected through the PCM, power loss to the car, battery
light
always on, cruise refusing to stay engaged, pulsing lighting in the dash,
sluggish engine performance, even the headlights on the car were dim,
including the car refusing to stay running after starting.)Sure enough it
was the PCM. (main computer under passenger side, some call it the ECM)
That being said, the other garage I first took it to was not Buick (had
positive experiences in the past) to fix this problem failure to remain
running after starting... they decided to rip me a new one at the tune of
$600+ for replacing the passkey module to fix the problem which ultimately
did not resolve the problem! After talking to people from various sites
and
at buick, I've pretty much come to the conclusion the passkey module
controls both gas flow and the engine turning over. Now when I first got
the
car towed to them it turned over like a charm! No matter how many times I
tried starting it, it wouldn't start! The more I tried, the more I smelled
gas, so that right there rules out a faulty passkey module, the engine was
getting gas and it was turning over.
The non Buick garage charged me $600 the first time and I got stranded
from
the same problem at work a few weeks later and had to get the car towed
after they supposedly "fixed it" The second time they looked at it, the
car
started working again so for the heck of it, tacked another $100 to the
bill
that they couldn't find a thing wrong. I had to get the car towed AGAIN
this
week and decided to go to Buick this time and now the problem is actually
fixed and I've never seen the car run this nicely.
I am on a payment plan with these people and have not yet begun to pay
them,
what options do I have open to me? What can I do to pursue this garage
because they didn't fix the problem! I'm being charged for tests, labor,
and
most importantly an expensive passkey module that did NOT need replacing!
Even more importantly, even before I got them to work on the car, I told
them I suspected a faulty PCM after reading up on the problem, and they
blew
me off saying it couldn't possibly be that and didn't even bother to
check.
After being towed twice after being "fixed" and charged $600 for something
that wasn't the culprit, how can I deal with these people that they can't
shaft me with the ole "it's a combination of a faulty PCM and passkey
module
that resulted in your car not starting.
Because if indeed this passkey module does control both gas and engine
turnover, I didn't have a problem with either one! The car would simply
die
right after letting the key return to the running position after hearing
the
engine running.
I would really appreciate some input on what options are open to me and
what
evidence I need to gather to prove my case.
I would never consider paying that bill. They misdiagnosed your car due
to inability. You need not pay for some fools guesswork. I would start by |
asking to talk to the owner or manager, not some customer pleasing flunky.
Then state your case calmly but firmly. State that the vehicle was never
fixed after $700 and 2 attempts. Therefore, you are fully entitled to take
it somewhere where it could be properly fixed. And they did properly fix it
the first time. I would not mention that you thought it was the PCM all
along. You are not a certified mechanic to tell him that, and it only comes
off as an "I told you so" kind of statement. Then I would say you do not
feel you should pay for someone's misdiagnosis. Tell them that any reputable
shop would not charge you for their mistakes. It is not your fault the
mechanics ability was lacking. I have many years of GM experience and can
tell you the pass key module replacement for your symptoms was really a weak
decision. You owe no shop anything. You paid for a service the first day you
went there for the problem. You got misdiagnosis(ripped off) Some people
believe that the same shop that ripped you off deserves a second TRY at the
problem to continue to try to diagnose the car when they failed at it the
first time and cost you money. Did they take a snapshot of the readings with
a scan tool under various conditions to try to diagnose it. Or even put a
meter on a wire. There are too many flunkie mechanics that diagnose by
guessing. They think well, it sounds like it could be this part or module.
Sounds like it could be? You don't diagnose with that thinking. Almost any
circuit on a car can be tested either with a hand held meter that reads
frequency or a handheld scope or a scantool. If they are too stupid to use
these to correctly diagnose,they should gain some knowledge because they
just give the rest of us a bad name(and cause your problem)Please remind
them of the fact that these circuits can be tested and ask them which device
they used to prove the module that was really good was bad? If they will not
work with you at all, I would try the person highest in the organization. If
it is a chain, you have a better chance of success by contacting the
corporate office. Most of the time, these things can be resolved. But the
person you are talking to at the shop is going to see what he can get away
with before he decides to give up anything. They will try lines like" well
if your PCM went out a couple weeks later, we can't help that. But your
symptoms never went away. Keep us posted. |
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SgtSilicon
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:40 am Post subject:
Re: Two different garages...one fixed it the other didn't... |
|
|
You aren't just paying for labor. You are also paying for expertise.
They shouldn't be replacing parts that are good. Even people without
the specific expertise on a certain model have available detailed
service manuals they can purchase on paper or CDROM. There are
troubleshooting flow charts. I think if those are followed, the
correct problem is usually found the 1st time, and most of the flow
charts suggest TESTING of certain parts to determine if they are bad;
not just replacing parts based on a general and non specific notions
of auto repair.
I am willing to bet that in this person's case, the factory service
manuals would have pointed to the PCM, and would have had a way to
rule out the PASSKEY system. That's probably why the Buick garage
fixed the problem the 1st time they got it.
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:15:44 GMT, Mike Levy
<mike-newsgroups@levyclan.nospam.us> wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:32:39 -0500, "el Diablo" <nomail@spam.not
wrote:
"Acru Fox" <acrufox(nospam)@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dm5pd.6498$ld2.2815@trnddc05...
Yes but I DID take it back to them after it happened again for a second
time, they just simply told me, it worked fine, here we're tacking on
another $100, I shouldn't have had to pay for that, it was taken in for
the
SAME problem. I don't have the funds to keep taking in the car to the same
people when they don't fix it and tell me not to worry, it's been towed
TWICE since they "fixed" it. They gave me a short period of time where
they
had a warranty on their work, what's the point in taking it back to them
after their flimsy 30 day warranty runs out? After it occurred a 2nd time
it
was getting close to the end of the one month warranty, the third time it
occurred outside that time frame.
I talked with them after the 2nd tow and they said the owner would get in
contact with me, and NEVER did, it by that point had run for a few weeks
and
I left it at that. When you are at $700 and they are just randomly
replacing parts on the car and you get stranded for the THIRD time and pay
for yet another tow for the exact same problem I don't feel obligated to
stay locked in with them for yet another "repair" and get stranded yet
again. I cannot afford to constantly call into work and use the same
excuse
"I can't come in again, car troubles" I am getting sick and tired of
taking
time off to go to state farm to file for a refund for towing and then
going
to the bank. I am now on a first name basis with my insurance company, and
they right off the bat know why I am there yet again.
The car had so many problems before the computer was replaced, now that
it's
replaced it runs like a brand new car, nothing is broken now. I had 5-6
known problems these people knew about as I had told them, but they did
not
put 1+1 together to think just for a second, all these problems had one
thing in common, all were connected to the ECM. When I initially took it
into them, it was for driving along, suddenly all electrical power to the
car died and I was coasting, their diagnosis? A bad battery connection,
comeon now, I've had cars jumped where I disconnected the battery from the
system and it ran just fine with no battery.
These people obviously cannot properly repair a Buick, they told me "oh it
could never be the ECM, the ECM's never go in those cars, I've never had
to
replace an ECM, it couldn't possibly by that" When they are so hell bent
on
not listening to you and you are proven to be correct all along, you start
questioning the validity of paying these people for something never fixed,
that the customer is NEVER right.
I agree with you that you shouldn't have to pay for repairs that aren't
fixed. But you did select them and by doing so gave them the right to do
what they felt was right. Now having said that I agree that they probably
don't have the ability to fix the issues that you had. But you still need to
work it out with them. By not paying the bill and ending up in court your
negotiating is severely limited, as like I said the judge will decide.
If the owner won't call you back track him down, people are much less likely
to take advantage of someone who is assertive.
When I need to have a repair performed that I either can't do, or don't want
to do I take my vehicles to a Chevy dealer near where I work. The first few
times they tried to give me the bums rush and tell me that I needed this and
that. I know enough to tell them that I want only what I want fixed at the
price they quoted me. Now that I've established with them I'm not an easy
mark they only call me during a repair if there is truly a problem.
It's a shame that we have to be that way but remember the old saying, "Buyer
Beware".
Brian
I think what the OP is getting at is that considering the problem
wasn't fixed he shouldn't have to pay for the repairs that were
attempted. Consider this: you take you vehicle in for a no fuel
condition, they do some testing and decide the pump is bad so they
replace it. Only to find out that te pump wan't bad, it was some
wiring between the pump and the ECM or the relay. Now, that pump's
been installed, they really can't return it to the shelf, would you
expect to have to pay for that part if it wasn't the actual solution?
I wouldn't like to. In the OP's words (maybe paraphrased), they
"fixed" the vehicle, only to have the problem return, meaning they
really didn't fix it. I wouldn't be happy paying for a repair that
didn't fix my vehicle... |
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Refinish King
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:44 am Post subject:
Re: Two different garages...one fixed it the other didn't... |
|
|
If you were a lawyer:
You'd be disbarred!
You have to pursue this legally. Use the remedies the state gives you, i.e.:
The Attorney General's Office, Department Of Consumer Affairs.
If you don't pay, the shop has the right to sue you for non payment, and a
good chance to win.
You must document your complaints by certified and ground mail to the shop,
and caption the letter stating that you sent the messages both certified and
USPS ground mail. After you establish a paper trail, you can use that as a
defense, even if they refuse the certified letter.
Refinish King
"R" <bob@aol.com> wrote in message
news:M%8pd.11192$pK6.8789@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
| Quote: |
"Acru Fox" <acrufox(nospam)@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:AcYod.9404$1B2.5465@trnddc02...
I took my 1994 Buick Lesabre into the dealership and left it with the
Buick
garage and I got the car late this afternoon (all along I thought it was
the
PCM, all the various problems which were somewhat related only by one
thing...all connected through the PCM, power loss to the car, battery
light
always on, cruise refusing to stay engaged, pulsing lighting in the
dash,
sluggish engine performance, even the headlights on the car were dim,
including the car refusing to stay running after starting.)Sure enough
it
was the PCM. (main computer under passenger side, some call it the ECM)
That being said, the other garage I first took it to was not Buick (had
positive experiences in the past) to fix this problem failure to remain
running after starting... they decided to rip me a new one at the tune
of
$600+ for replacing the passkey module to fix the problem which
ultimately
did not resolve the problem! After talking to people from various sites
and
at buick, I've pretty much come to the conclusion the passkey module
controls both gas flow and the engine turning over. Now when I first got
the
car towed to them it turned over like a charm! No matter how many times
I
tried starting it, it wouldn't start! The more I tried, the more I
smelled
gas, so that right there rules out a faulty passkey module, the engine
was
getting gas and it was turning over.
The non Buick garage charged me $600 the first time and I got stranded
from
the same problem at work a few weeks later and had to get the car towed
after they supposedly "fixed it" The second time they looked at it, the
car
started working again so for the heck of it, tacked another $100 to the
bill
that they couldn't find a thing wrong. I had to get the car towed AGAIN
this
week and decided to go to Buick this time and now the problem is
actually
fixed and I've never seen the car run this nicely.
I am on a payment plan with these people and have not yet begun to pay
them,
what options do I have open to me? What can I do to pursue this garage
because they didn't fix the problem! I'm being charged for tests, labor,
and
most importantly an expensive passkey module that did NOT need
replacing!
Even more importantly, even before I got them to work on the car, I told
them I suspected a faulty PCM after reading up on the problem, and they
blew
me off saying it couldn't possibly be that and didn't even bother to
check.
After being towed twice after being "fixed" and charged $600 for
something
that wasn't the culprit, how can I deal with these people that they
can't
shaft me with the ole "it's a combination of a faulty PCM and passkey
module
that resulted in your car not starting.
Because if indeed this passkey module does control both gas and engine
turnover, I didn't have a problem with either one! The car would simply
die
right after letting the key return to the running position after hearing
the
engine running.
I would really appreciate some input on what options are open to me and
what
evidence I need to gather to prove my case.
I would never consider paying that bill. They misdiagnosed your car due
to inability. You need not pay for some fools guesswork. I would start by
asking to talk to the owner or manager, not some customer pleasing flunky.
Then state your case calmly but firmly. State that the vehicle was never
fixed after $700 and 2 attempts. Therefore, you are fully entitled to take
it somewhere where it could be properly fixed. And they did properly fix
it
the first time. I would not mention that you thought it was the PCM all
along. You are not a certified mechanic to tell him that, and it only
comes
off as an "I told you so" kind of statement. Then I would say you do not
feel you should pay for someone's misdiagnosis. Tell them that any
reputable
shop would not charge you for their mistakes. It is not your fault the
mechanics ability was lacking. I have many years of GM experience and can
tell you the pass key module replacement for your symptoms was really a
weak
decision. You owe no shop anything. You paid for a service the first day
you
went there for the problem. You got misdiagnosis(ripped off) Some people
believe that the same shop that ripped you off deserves a second TRY at
the
problem to continue to try to diagnose the car when they failed at it the
first time and cost you money. Did they take a snapshot of the readings
with
a scan tool under various conditions to try to diagnose it. Or even put a
meter on a wire. There are too many flunkie mechanics that diagnose by
guessing. They think well, it sounds like it could be this part or module.
Sounds like it could be? You don't diagnose with that thinking. Almost any
circuit on a car can be tested either with a hand held meter that reads
frequency or a handheld scope or a scantool. If they are too stupid to use
these to correctly diagnose,they should gain some knowledge because they
just give the rest of us a bad name(and cause your problem)Please remind
them of the fact that these circuits can be tested and ask them which
device
they used to prove the module that was really good was bad? If they will
not
work with you at all, I would try the person highest in the organization.
If
it is a chain, you have a better chance of success by contacting the
corporate office. Most of the time, these things can be resolved. But the
person you are talking to at the shop is going to see what he can get away
with before he decides to give up anything. They will try lines like" well
if your PCM went out a couple weeks later, we can't help that. But your
symptoms never went away. Keep us posted.
|
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Acru Fox
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:19 pm Post subject:
Re: Two different garages...one fixed it the other didn't... |
|
|
What ticks me off is that I took it in knowing full well it was the ECM, too
many systems on the car started failing on it for it to be one specific
problem like the battery or the passkey module, it didn't explain that at
the same time, power to the entire car would quit, cruise control would not
remain engaged, suddenly the car runs horribly and gets horrible gas
mileage, the alternator light was on ALL the time, the air-conditioning
stopped working, the car would turnover get gas and the battery test came up
negative for problems.
Come-on now all these problems occurring all at once, you have to ask that
pointed question, why all these problems all at the same time, what do all
these problems share? The only thing they do share, is they are all tied
into the car's computer! I took it to these people TWICE, for the same
problem, now if it's under warranty as they said, why are they charging me
another $100 for me getting it towed (another towing charge) for the same
reason? I'm not some sadistic person that pretends to be stranded at work so
I can call tow trucks to take it back to them. It was back in their shop for
the SAME problem, the problem went away for a couple months and came back
and did the same problem. The car sat in their garage for a 3 day holiday
weekend and by the time they looked at the car, it started up again. They
charged me a few hundred dollars for computer tests, now I'm no idiot, I
used to have a VW with the VAG system, I built my own cable and whatnot,
bought the software, I came up with error codes in 5 mins, there is no need
to keep charging hundreds of dollars for computer tests that take only a few
mins to complete.
I do a lot of reading, sometimes I spend days looking up recalls and notice
bulletins, I found several people who literally spent thousands on the same
problem, only to end up replacing the ECM and bam the problem went away, one
old woman had her 94 Buick lose power on hills and had power die to the car,
she took it in several times and eventually had someone else look at the
car, they ran a voltage test on it and it was way off spec. I didn't have a
voltmeter but my car had the same problems, the more I read up the more it
pointed to the car's computer, and no matter how much those two times I
dropped my car off there, they were hell bent on the policy "the customer is
never right"
"SgtSilicon" <secretspam@ihatespam.net> wrote in message
news:41a56bd7.387515437@nntp.charter.net...
| Quote: | You aren't just paying for labor. You are also paying for expertise.
They shouldn't be replacing parts that are good. Even people without
the specific expertise on a certain model have available detailed
service manuals they can purchase on paper or CDROM. There are
troubleshooting flow charts. I think if those are followed, the
correct problem is usually found the 1st time, and most of the flow
charts suggest TESTING of certain parts to determine if they are bad;
not just replacing parts based on a general and non specific notions
of auto repair.
I am willing to bet that in this person's case, the factory service
manuals would have pointed to the PCM, and would have had a way to
rule out the PASSKEY system. That's probably why the Buick garage
fixed the problem the 1st time they got it.
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:15:44 GMT, Mike Levy
mike-newsgroups@levyclan.nospam.us> wrote:
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:32:39 -0500, "el Diablo" <nomail@spam.not
wrote:
"Acru Fox" <acrufox(nospam)@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dm5pd.6498$ld2.2815@trnddc05...
Yes but I DID take it back to them after it happened again for a second
time, they just simply told me, it worked fine, here we're tacking on
another $100, I shouldn't have had to pay for that, it was taken in for
the
SAME problem. I don't have the funds to keep taking in the car to the
same
people when they don't fix it and tell me not to worry, it's been towed
TWICE since they "fixed" it. They gave me a short period of time where
they
had a warranty on their work, what's the point in taking it back to
them
after their flimsy 30 day warranty runs out? After it occurred a 2nd
time
it
was getting close to the end of the one month warranty, the third time
it
occurred outside that time frame.
I talked with them after the 2nd tow and they said the owner would get
in
contact with me, and NEVER did, it by that point had run for a few
weeks
and
I left it at that. When you are at $700 and they are just randomly
replacing parts on the car and you get stranded for the THIRD time and
pay
for yet another tow for the exact same problem I don't feel obligated
to
stay locked in with them for yet another "repair" and get stranded yet
again. I cannot afford to constantly call into work and use the same
excuse
"I can't come in again, car troubles" I am getting sick and tired of
taking
time off to go to state farm to file for a refund for towing and then
going
to the bank. I am now on a first name basis with my insurance company,
and
they right off the bat know why I am there yet again.
The car had so many problems before the computer was replaced, now that
it's
replaced it runs like a brand new car, nothing is broken now. I had 5-6
known problems these people knew about as I had told them, but they did
not
put 1+1 together to think just for a second, all these problems had one
thing in common, all were connected to the ECM. When I initially took
it
into them, it was for driving along, suddenly all electrical power to
the
car died and I was coasting, their diagnosis? A bad battery connection,
comeon now, I've had cars jumped where I disconnected the battery from
the
system and it ran just fine with no battery.
These people obviously cannot properly repair a Buick, they told me "oh
it
could never be the ECM, the ECM's never go in those cars, I've never
had
to
replace an ECM, it couldn't possibly by that" When they are so hell
bent
on
not listening to you and you are proven to be correct all along, you
start
questioning the validity of paying these people for something never
fixed,
that the customer is NEVER right.
I agree with you that you shouldn't have to pay for repairs that aren't
fixed. But you did select them and by doing so gave them the right to do
what they felt was right. Now having said that I agree that they probably
don't have the ability to fix the issues that you had. But you still need
to
work it out with them. By not paying the bill and ending up in court your
negotiating is severely limited, as like I said the judge will decide.
If the owner won't call you back track him down, people are much less
likely
to take advantage of someone who is assertive.
When I need to have a repair performed that I either can't do, or don't
want
to do I take my vehicles to a Chevy dealer near where I work. The first
few
times they tried to give me the bums rush and tell me that I needed this
and
that. I know enough to tell them that I want only what I want fixed at
the
price they quoted me. Now that I've established with them I'm not an easy
mark they only call me during a repair if there is truly a problem.
It's a shame that we have to be that way but remember the old saying,
"Buyer
Beware".
Brian
I think what the OP is getting at is that considering the problem
wasn't fixed he shouldn't have to pay for the repairs that were
attempted. Consider this: you take you vehicle in for a no fuel
condition, they do some testing and decide the pump is bad so they
replace it. Only to find out that te pump wan't bad, it was some
wiring between the pump and the ECM or the relay. Now, that pump's
been installed, they really can't return it to the shelf, would you
expect to have to pay for that part if it wasn't the actual solution?
I wouldn't like to. In the OP's words (maybe paraphrased), they
"fixed" the vehicle, only to have the problem return, meaning they
really didn't fix it. I wouldn't be happy paying for a repair that
didn't fix my vehicle...
|
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Acru Fox
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:45 pm Post subject:
Re: Two different garages...one fixed it the other didn't... |
|
|
Their own mechanics actually admitted that they took the dash out and
"manually" traced the problem down to a faulty passkey module and replaced
it. Which for me translates into "we hooked it up to the computer, the
computer did not give any error codes and so we decided to charge lots of
hours and labor for one of our mechanics to unnecessarily rip your dash out
and run these manual tests. From what I have read up on the 1994 Buick
lesabres, is that the PCM gives error codes for everything EXCEPT the
computer! It was one of the first generation cars to use such an extensive
use of a computer to regulate the car's systems, unfortunately they forgot
to give the computer the ability to self diagnose itself and give it it's
own error code. It gives fault codes for anything attached to it, but even
if it was brain-dead it wouldn't give a code.
I wish I could find some information somewhere on what the 1994 Buick
passkey module does, so if they give me this runaround of it was a
combination of the two that caused this, pay the bill. I can say "this is
the official documentation of a Buick passkey module, when I initially took
this car in, it was to resolve the car not remain running, that here right
on the bill, it says the car turns over but doesn't start. If it was the
passkey module, it would have prevented my car from even turning over, here
is the documentation that proves this is the case, here is the bill from
Buick, where it lists the exact same issue with the car as listed on this
bill. From my dealings after the 2nd visit I am getting the impression that
their mechanic knows everything and he couldn't have possibly made a
mistake.
I ask myself this constantly because I have extensive knowledge in
computers, why would one have to take most of the dash out to do testing on
the circuit? The people at Buick had the car most of the day, and when I
talked to the mechanic Gary he said he tested almost all the circuits in the
car, for shorts and whatnot, not once did he mention taking out the dash,
let alone seeing labor on the bill for removal of the dash, he simply said
the computer did not come back with any error codes, and after testing all
the circuits that had this problem, all came back negative for problems, so
he took a PCM off the shelf, called me a few mins later and told me the car
was starting again and asked if I wanted it installed.
I plan to go in Monday and do my best to talk with the owner. With two tow
bills and all my receipts I hope I get somewheres.
My parents bought a used I think 2002 Buick Lesabre from this very same
dealership, whenever they would drive the car, in the highest gear the car
lurched. You could hear a thunking sound. Took it in under their used car
warranty, time and time again we got the car back from the dealership and a
few days later...thunk thunk thunk. Took it back three times, I got tired of
hearing about it so I looked up the recalls for the car as well as service
announcements, actually found it on an official Buick site, that the
transmissions had a defective solenoid switch that would cause this
problem. I printed this official service bulletin out and went back to the
dealership, I presented the owner with this printout and told them to fix it
properly under the warranty. Next thing I know he's admitting that GM told
them to replace parts of the transmission as they go, instead of the whole
transmission, sort of a stop gap measure to save money. Got the car back a
couple days later, it's been several months now, and the problem has not
returned, nor has the printout that they gave the dealership that they asked
for back lol |
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Acru Fox
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:12 pm Post subject:
Re: Two different garages...one fixed it the other didn't... |
|
|
I haven't paid yet because they only recently sent me my first bill, it was
due after the date of writing the initial article, since it's sort of a
holiday weekend, I haven't been able to talk to anyone since the shop is
closed and I just submitted the first payment. Which is why I'm asking for
any/all advice on where I should start, I'm not one to default on payments,
even in this situation, but I would like to persue the matter and either
stop paying or get a reduction in the overall bill. It's not acceptable
paying $1200 between the two shops to fix a simple thing like not remain
running.
Wish I had been more headstrong though, call Buick, order the part, when in
stock, drive over there, yank the old pcm out, give it to them, get the core
charge discount, walk out with new pcm, install, and drive off. I take it
into these people in hopes THEY will fix it, not come to this conclusion I
made the mistake in not listening to myself because in the end I was the one
proven correct and I'm not even the mechanic! I have enough know how to
successfully look the info up and do most of the work myself. I would have
saved the hassle of being stranded three times, three tow bills, three
visits to my insurance company. Would have cost me $350-$400 after core
charge and no labor costs, and no time lost at work since I could easily
switch it out on my lunch hour and easily have the $$$ to have it paid off
with money to spare.
I had a friend who had a 1994 VW, the car lost a LOT of power, to the point
the car would quit on the highway. He took it to the VW dealership, they
charged him hundreds of dollars, still the same problem. He was told the
computer reset if the car was started and did not occur during that drive,
that the problem went away, that they had to get it while the car was
running right after it happened so the data would not be erased, they
replaced all sorts of parts including the MAF sensor. Problem is, when this
problem did occur, they wanted him to conform to appointments that sometimes
ended up in a one to two day backlog. He took it to a garage across from the
dealership when the problem occurred right after leaving VW, they came out,
hooked up the computer, and it was a faulty $70 sensor, he did not charge
him for the test nor any labor and scheduled him for an appointment the very
next day.
These days I do not like mechanic's over reliance on car computers that
obviously do not always help. You got to love how they charge for the
computer diagnostics that are nothing more than plugging this handheld
computer into a jack on the car, and get error codes that take only minutes
to obtain, and see $100 for a computer diagnostic that took no effort to
get. It's a computer, it keeps records, a computer is much faster than a
mechanic can be at fault location recording, it wrote the error code down in
memory, it's not rocket science for it to display an error code it recorded
in well under 30 mins. I've seen how it works, and the mechanic doesn't do
much to obtain any codes recorded, it should be part of the overall time in
labor and not as some over priced "specialized" test.
"Refinish King" <noneofyourbusiness@nevermind.net> wrote in message
news:KSxpd.7277$hJ6.4437@trndny01...
| Quote: | If you were a lawyer:
You'd be disbarred!
You have to pursue this legally. Use the remedies the state gives you,
i.e.:
The Attorney General's Office, Department Of Consumer Affairs.
If you don't pay, the shop has the right to sue you for non payment, and a
good chance to win.
You must document your complaints by certified and ground mail to the
shop,
and caption the letter stating that you sent the messages both certified
and
USPS ground mail. After you establish a paper trail, you can use that as a
defense, even if they refuse the certified letter.
Refinish King
"R" <bob@aol.com> wrote in message
news:M%8pd.11192$pK6.8789@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Acru Fox" <acrufox(nospam)@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:AcYod.9404$1B2.5465@trnddc02...
I took my 1994 Buick Lesabre into the dealership and left it with the
Buick
garage and I got the car late this afternoon (all along I thought it
was
the
PCM, all the various problems which were somewhat related only by one
thing...all connected through the PCM, power loss to the car, battery
light
always on, cruise refusing to stay engaged, pulsing lighting in the
dash,
sluggish engine performance, even the headlights on the car were dim,
including the car refusing to stay running after starting.)Sure enough
it
was the PCM. (main computer under passenger side, some call it the ECM)
That being said, the other garage I first took it to was not Buick
(had
positive experiences in the past) to fix this problem failure to remain
running after starting... they decided to rip me a new one at the tune
of
$600+ for replacing the passkey module to fix the problem which
ultimately
did not resolve the problem! After talking to people from various sites
and
at buick, I've pretty much come to the conclusion the passkey module
controls both gas flow and the engine turning over. Now when I first
got
the
car towed to them it turned over like a charm! No matter how many times
I
tried starting it, it wouldn't start! The more I tried, the more I
smelled
gas, so that right there rules out a faulty passkey module, the engine
was
getting gas and it was turning over.
The non Buick garage charged me $600 the first time and I got stranded
from
the same problem at work a few weeks later and had to get the car towed
after they supposedly "fixed it" The second time they looked at it, the
car
started working again so for the heck of it, tacked another $100 to the
bill
that they couldn't find a thing wrong. I had to get the car towed AGAIN
this
week and decided to go to Buick this time and now the problem is
actually
fixed and I've never seen the car run this nicely.
I am on a payment plan with these people and have not yet begun to pay
them,
what options do I have open to me? What can I do to pursue this garage
because they didn't fix the problem! I'm being charged for tests,
labor,
and
most importantly an expensive passkey module that did NOT need
replacing!
Even more importantly, even before I got them to work on the car, I
told
them I suspected a faulty PCM after reading up on the problem, and they
blew
me off saying it couldn't possibly be that and didn't even bother to
check.
After being towed twice after being "fixed" and charged $600 for
something
that wasn't the culprit, how can I deal with these people that they
can't
shaft me with the ole "it's a combination of a faulty PCM and passkey
module
that resulted in your car not starting.
Because if indeed this passkey module does control both gas and engine
turnover, I didn't have a problem with either one! The car would simply
die
right after letting the key return to the running position after
hearing
the
engine running.
I would really appreciate some input on what options are open to me and
what
evidence I need to gather to prove my case.
I would never consider paying that bill. They misdiagnosed your car
due
to inability. You need not pay for some fools guesswork. I would start by
asking to talk to the owner or manager, not some customer pleasing
flunky.
Then state your case calmly but firmly. State that the vehicle was never
fixed after $700 and 2 attempts. Therefore, you are fully entitled to
take
it somewhere where it could be properly fixed. And they did properly fix
it
the first time. I would not mention that you thought it was the PCM all
along. You are not a certified mechanic to tell him that, and it only
comes
off as an "I told you so" kind of statement. Then I would say you do not
feel you should pay for someone's misdiagnosis. Tell them that any
reputable
shop would not charge you for their mistakes. It is not your fault the
mechanics ability was lacking. I have many years of GM experience and can
tell you the pass key module replacement for your symptoms was really a
weak
decision. You owe no shop anything. You paid for a service the first day
you
went there for the problem. You got misdiagnosis(ripped off) Some people
believe that the same shop that ripped you off deserves a second TRY at
the
problem to continue to try to diagnose the car when they failed at it the
first time and cost you money. Did they take a snapshot of the readings
with
a scan tool under various conditions to try to diagnose it. Or even put a
meter on a wire. There are too many flunkie mechanics that diagnose by
guessing. They think well, it sounds like it could be this part or
module.
Sounds like it could be? You don't diagnose with that thinking. Almost
any
circuit on a car can be tested either with a hand held meter that reads
frequency or a handheld scope or a scantool. If they are too stupid to
use
these to correctly diagnose,they should gain some knowledge because they
just give the rest of us a bad name(and cause your problem)Please remind
them of the fact that these circuits can be tested and ask them which
device
they used to prove the module that was really good was bad? If they will
not
work with you at all, I would try the person highest in the organization.
If
it is a chain, you have a better chance of success by contacting the
corporate office. Most of the time, these things can be resolved. But the
person you are talking to at the shop is going to see what he can get
away
with before he decides to give up anything. They will try lines like"
well
if your PCM went out a couple weeks later, we can't help that. But your
symptoms never went away. Keep us posted.
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Ted Mittelstaedt
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:42 pm Post subject:
Re: Two different garages...one fixed it the other didn't... |
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"Refinish King" <noneofyourbusiness@nevermind.net> wrote in message
news:KSxpd.7277$hJ6.4437@trndny01...
| Quote: | If you were a lawyer:
You'd be disbarred!
You have to pursue this legally. Use the remedies the state gives you,
i.e.:
The Attorney General's Office, Department Of Consumer Affairs.
If you don't pay, the shop has the right to sue you for non payment, and a
good chance to win.
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Not if it can be established that there was fraud involved. In this case if
it were
me I wouldn't pay or I would pay only a token payment, and I would
immediately
file a small claims lawsuit.
If you don't pay they can't do anything other than turn you over to
collections, and
by the time that they do that, and by the time that the collections agency
gets around
to threatening you with being sued, a small claims process is going to be
over with.
Keep in mind the process of paying and the process of establishing whether
you
own them anything are two separate issues. Legally you owe them the money,
until a court (or negotiation) establishes otherwise. But if there is
litigation pending
(ie: your small claims) then a collection agency isn't going to touch it.
I would also not bother trying to call the owner and work it out. They
already
had their chance to do this and blew you off. Once you get your claim filed
they
will have plenty of chance to work things out within the guidelines of the
court.
That also prevents delaying and stalling actions on their part. And it also
documents
any attempts that they make to work it out.
The simple fact is that they represented to you that they were going to
perform a
service (fix your car) they had a fair chance to do it, and instead
deliberately
did a repair procedure that a second garage verified wasn't even part of the
broken system.
That looks pretty much like deliberate fraud, and misrepresentation of what
business they are in.
I know that most repair places do not want to be out money, and so they try
to
play this game that your paying them to "work on the car" rather than your
paying them
to "fix the car" In short the implication is that somehow they have no
responsibility
to actually do the repair correctly, and that you should have to pay for
their training
and eduction as they experiment with different repair procedures. But a
shop is not
legally obligated to work on your broken vehicle when you bring it in to
them. When
they accept your vehicle to work on it, they accept responsibility for
fixing it correctly
in a reasonable time/cost (ie: book time) that is why they all use computer
programs
to determine how much to charge you, rather than measuring how long it
actually took
(unless of course it takes longer than book time)
Ted |
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Bob Urz
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Two different garages...one fixed it the other didn't... |
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SgtSilicon wrote:
| Quote: | You aren't just paying for labor. You are also paying for expertise.
They shouldn't be replacing parts that are good. Even people without
the specific expertise on a certain model have available detailed
service manuals they can purchase on paper or CDROM. There are
troubleshooting flow charts. I think if those are followed, the
correct problem is usually found the 1st time, and most of the flow
charts suggest TESTING of certain parts to determine if they are bad;
not just replacing parts based on a general and non specific notions
of auto repair.
I am willing to bet that in this person's case, the factory service
manuals would have pointed to the PCM, and would have had a way to
rule out the PASSKEY system. That's probably why the Buick garage
fixed the problem the 1st time they got it.
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:15:44 GMT, Mike Levy
mike-newsgroups@levyclan.nospam.us> wrote:
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What you have to realize is that not all repairs are "BLACK and WHITE".
Meaning, look at this symptom on the smoking gun is always this.
The service manual is a guide, not a absolute source to ID every problem
ever possible. There can be many causes for the same problem. Including
wiring and intermittiants. The original tech probably went down the list
and replaced what they thought the problem was. And since it probably
did not misbehave when the first tech had it, he was taking his best
opinion on the problem. Intermittiants can be a bitch. The dealer of
course was told about the pass key module just being replace. Otherwise
they might have gone the same route. Its always easy after the fact to
say that they should have known better. Trouble shooting is an art. And
sometimes not a exact science. Sometimes you have to replace blocks or
modules to rule them out. Unfortunately in this case, the OP had to pay
for them.
Its unfortunate that the first independent shop did not show a more
customer service attitude after the original problem as not solved.
If you have a good independent shop you trust, keep it.
Its also possible it was NOT the PCM. A bad or slightly corroded
connection may have been fixed by the simple undoing and replacing the
PCM cables. Or ground for that matter.
Bob
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Refinish King
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Nov 28, 2004 4:33 am Post subject:
Re: Two different garages...one fixed it the other didn't... |
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They can sue him first!
Refinish King
"Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm@toybox.placo.com> wrote in message
news:newscache$2eks7i$yo42$1@news.ipinc.net...
| Quote: |
"Refinish King" <noneofyourbusiness@ne |
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