| Author |
Message |
exxos
Guest
|
 Posted:
Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:21 am Post subject:
Re: alternator circuit question |
|
|
"Daniel J. Stern" <dastern@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.58.0411191652350.10472@alumni.engin.umich.edu...
| Quote: | On Fri, 19 Nov 2004, exxos wrote:
I had a problem with one of my cars in the past with the alternator not
charging, what this turned out to be was the ground pin on the regulator
was going via a lamp on the dashboard, thus giveing a slight volt raise
on the ground so you got maybe 13V from the 12V regulator, though it
took me a long time to work out why my battery wouldn't charge, turns
out the bulb went on the dashboard, no ground on the regulator,
alternator didn't charge the battery, thus car wouldn't start....
Fun story, but not applicable to the original poster's '91 Acclaim -- not
even a little bit. Also, "12v" automotive voltage regulators have set
points of between 13.8 and 15.1 volts. A regulator with a set point of 12v
would not charge the battery.
|
I was suggesting that simple faults can make things look like sometime which
they are not, and yes you are correct 12V wont charge the battery, the OP
had alternator problems which im pretty sure I gave some suggestions towards
a possible cure. 12V regulators do exsist, like my old car raised to around
13V via the resistance in the dash lamp, the OP has a valuable new view
point on his problem to which I replied.
chris
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exxos
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:26 am Post subject:
Re: alternator circuit question |
|
|
"maxpower" <gjbeasley@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:uP-dnS4tafzl-wPcRVn-gA@comcast.com...
| Quote: | i would check out the circuit before cutting and adding resistors and
regulators, try to keep eveything working the way it was designed, many a
times i have found the 8 way connectors loose/corroded causing a no charge
condition. just a simple back probe test to the PCM
|
assuming you replied to my msg, the lamp was part of those car diagnostic
"features", I think the idea was that if the regulator shorted out it would
light the lamp on the dash... only mine had a I/O short (at some point in
its life) so the lamp never lite, but yet the battery was charging to to
19V... It also doubled up to raise the regulator voltage to about 13V....so
much for technology..... good idea in theory though ;-)
chris
| Quote: | "exxos" <exxos@home.co.uk> wrote in message
news:419e6297$0$1821$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
"Jon G." <jon8338@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:bTand.3200$Qh3.682@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
I have a 91 Plymouth Acclaim, and the alternator doesn't charge the
battery. I took the alternator out and had it tested, and there's
nothing
wrong with it. I put a new battery in it, but it still won't charge. I
checked the fuseable link from the alternator to the battery, and there
is
continuity. Therefore, it must be the computer.
there are 4 connections on the alternator
L1: direct to battery, positive
L2: direct to battery, negative
c1: small wire, logic, to computer, activates diode
c2: small wire, logic, to computer, also battery ground.
I want to activate the alternator continuously and put on an external
voltage regulator.
What must the voltage (and current), to the logic inputs c1 & c2 be to
do
so?
I have in mind to run a potentiometer between L1 and c1, and adjust it
until the alternator kicks on.
The schematic shows that c1 goes to the coil of a transformer in the
alternator, which then goes to one of the diodes (an SCR?)
I had a problem with one of my cars in the past with the alternator not
charging, what this turned out to be was the ground pin on the regulator
was
going via a lamp on the dashboard, thus giveing a slight volt raise on
the
ground so you got maybe 13V from the 12V regulator, though it took me a
long
time to work out why my battery wouldn't charge, turns out the bulb went
on
the dashboard, no ground on the regulator, alternator didn't charge the
battery, thus car wouldn't start.... strange how a small item such as a
dashboard light can stop the car from starting ;-)
Chris
|
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Jim Thompson
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:58 am Post subject:
Re: alternator circuit question |
|
|
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:26:37 -0000, "exxos" <exxos@home.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: |
"maxpower" <gjbeasley@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:uP-dnS4tafzl-wPcRVn-gA@comcast.com...
i would check out the circuit before cutting and adding resistors and
regulators, try to keep eveything working the way it was designed, many a
times i have found the 8 way connectors loose/corroded causing a no charge
condition. just a simple back probe test to the PCM
assuming you replied to my msg, the lamp was part of those car diagnostic
"features", I think the idea was that if the regulator shorted out it would
light the lamp on the dash... only mine had a I/O short (at some point in
its life) so the lamp never lite, but yet the battery was charging to to
19V... It also doubled up to raise the regulator voltage to about 13V....so
much for technology..... good idea in theory though ;-)
chris
[snip] |
I think you'll find that the lamp was looking at the neutral
(mid-point of the "Y") terminal of the alternator, which is where most
idiot lights get their information... actually quite good at
indicating faults _before_ the battery goes dead.
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
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exxos
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:33 am Post subject:
Re: alternator circuit question |
|
|
"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:lfusp0dui6381l0jh56huo6u90h37u3no7@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:26:37 -0000, "exxos" <exxos@home.co.uk> wrote:
"maxpower" <gjbeasley@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:uP-dnS4tafzl-wPcRVn-gA@comcast.com...
i would check out the circuit before cutting and adding resistors and
regulators, try to keep eveything working the way it was designed, many
a
times i have found the 8 way connectors loose/corroded causing a no
charge
condition. just a simple back probe test to the PCM
assuming you replied to my msg, the lamp was part of those car diagnostic
"features", I think the idea was that if the regulator shorted out it
would
light the lamp on the dash... only mine had a I/O short (at some point in
its life) so the lamp never lite, but yet the battery was charging to to
19V... It also doubled up to raise the regulator voltage to about
13V....so
much for technology..... good idea in theory though ;-)
chris
[snip]
I think you'll find that the lamp was looking at the neutral
(mid-point of the "Y") terminal of the alternator, which is where most
idiot lights get their information... actually quite good at
indicating faults _before_ the battery goes dead.
|
It was in the ground, I actually grounded the point instead of going via the
lamp, battery only got around 11V on it though at least it proved the point.
It was actually a 12V regulator, I measued it with a DMM at the time and
even at high revs it only ever hit 12.5V, so it needed a higher ground ref,
hence via the dash lamp. I would never have thought they would do such
tricks like that on cars, ive seen it countless times on electronics
equipment, though was supprised to see the same trick on a car.
Chris
| Quote: |
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jim Thompson
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:00 am Post subject:
Re: alternator circuit question |
|
|
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 23:33:13 -0000, "exxos" <exxos@home.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: |
"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:lfusp0dui6381l0jh56huo6u90h37u3no7@4ax.com...
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:26:37 -0000, "exxos" <exxos@home.co.uk> wrote:
"maxpower" <gjbeasley@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:uP-dnS4tafzl-wPcRVn-gA@comcast.com...
i would check out the circuit before cutting and adding resistors and
regulators, try to keep eveything working the way it was designed, many
a
times i have found the 8 way connectors loose/corroded causing a no
charge
condition. just a simple back probe test to the PCM
assuming you replied to my msg, the lamp was part of those car diagnostic
"features", I think the idea was that if the regulator shorted out it
would
light the lamp on the dash... only mine had a I/O short (at some point in
its life) so the lamp never lite, but yet the battery was charging to to
19V... It also doubled up to raise the regulator voltage to about
13V....so
much for technology..... good idea in theory though ;-)
chris
[snip]
I think you'll find that the lamp was looking at the neutral
(mid-point of the "Y") terminal of the alternator, which is where most
idiot lights get their information... actually quite good at
indicating faults _before_ the battery goes dead.
It was in the ground, I actually grounded the point instead of going via the
lamp, battery only got around 11V on it though at least it proved the point.
It was actually a 12V regulator, I measued it with a DMM at the time and
even at high revs it only ever hit 12.5V, so it needed a higher ground ref,
hence via the dash lamp. I would never have thought they would do such
tricks like that on cars, ive seen it countless times on electronics
equipment, though was supprised to see the same trick on a car.
Chris
|
What brand of car? Yugo ?:-)
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
exxos
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:34 pm Post subject:
Re: alternator circuit question |
|
|
"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:o72tp0hlhg1h3a5bgbh7ag7sbes5ini05g@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 23:33:13 -0000, "exxos" <exxos@home.co.uk> wrote:
"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:lfusp0dui6381l0jh56huo6u90h37u3no7@4ax.com...
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:26:37 -0000, "exxos" <exxos@home.co.uk> wrote:
"maxpower" <gjbeasley@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:uP-dnS4tafzl-wPcRVn-gA@comcast.com...
i would check out the circuit before cutting and adding resistors and
regulators, try to keep eveything working the way it was designed,
many
a
times i have found the 8 way connectors loose/corroded causing a no
charge
condition. just a simple back probe test to the PCM
assuming you replied to my msg, the lamp was part of those car
diagnostic
"features", I think the idea was that if the regulator shorted out it
would
light the lamp on the dash... only mine had a I/O short (at some point
in
its life) so the lamp never lite, but yet the battery was charging to to
19V... It also doubled up to raise the regulator voltage to about
13V....so
much for technology..... good idea in theory though ;-)
chris
[snip]
I think you'll find that the lamp was looking at the neutral
(mid-point of the "Y") terminal of the alternator, which is where most
idiot lights get their information... actually quite good at
indicating faults _before_ the battery goes dead.
It was in the ground, I actually grounded the point instead of going via
the
lamp, battery only got around 11V on it though at least it proved the
point.
It was actually a 12V regulator, I measued it with a DMM at the time and
even at high revs it only ever hit 12.5V, so it needed a higher ground
ref,
hence via the dash lamp. I would never have thought they would do such
tricks like that on cars, ive seen it countless times on electronics
equipment, though was supprised to see the same trick on a car.
Chris
What brand of car? Yugo ?:-)
|
Citroen (SP?) did well lasted a long time, have a reno now, exloded last
week, ah off topic again....
Chris
| Quote: |
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jim Thompson
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:40 pm Post subject:
Re: alternator circuit question |
|
|
On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 08:34:23 -0000, "exxos" <exxos@home.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: |
"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:o72tp0hlhg1h3a5bgbh7ag7sbes5ini05g@4ax.com...
[snip]
It was actually a 12V regulator, I measued it with a DMM at the time and
even at high revs it only ever hit 12.5V, so it needed a higher ground
ref,
hence via the dash lamp. I would never have thought they would do such
tricks like that on cars, ive seen it countless times on electronics
equipment, though was supprised to see the same trick on a car.
Chris
What brand of car? Yugo ?:-)
Citroen (SP?) did well lasted a long time, have a reno now, exloded last
week, ah off topic again....
Chris
|
Pondering, it could be a form of temperature compensation. In a
Citroen, who knows ;-)
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:18 am Post subject:
Re: alternator circuit question |
|
|
On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:28:39 -0700, Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:11:51 GMT, "Jon G." <jon8338@peoplepc.com
wrote:
I have a 91 Plymouth Acclaim, and the alternator doesn't charge
the battery. I took the alternator out and had it tested, and
there's nothing wrong with it. I put a new battery in it, but
it still won't charge. I checked the fuseable link from the
alternator to the battery, and there is continuity. Therefore,
it must be the computer.
there are 4 connections on the alternator
L1: direct to battery, positive
L2: direct to battery, negative
c1: small wire, logic, to computer, activates diode
c2: small wire, logic, to computer, also battery ground.
I want to activate the alternator continuously and put on an
external voltage regulator.
What must the voltage (and current), to the logic inputs c1 & c2
be to do so?
I have in mind to run a potentiometer between L1 and c1, and
adjust it until the alternator kicks on.
The schematic shows that c1 goes to the coil of a transformer in
the alternator, which then goes to one of the diodes (an SCR?)
Check your car wiring diagram and locate the regulator.
...Jim Thompson
|
The engine control computer has the regulator built in, and an
external regulator CAN be installed. |
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Jon G.
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:25 am Post subject:
Re: alternator circuit question |
|
|
Hi D.S.,
We rigged it up like you said, and the thing works! I got a
voltage regulator at Advance Auto from off your list, wired
everything, and now there's 14 volts of charge on the battery.
Thank you for your help. It saved me from having to get another
computer.
Regards,
Jon
Daniel J. Stern wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 19 Nov 2004, exxos wrote:
I had a problem with one of my cars in the past with the alternator not
charging, what this turned out to be was the ground pin on the regulator
was going via a lamp on the dashboard, thus giveing a slight volt raise
on the ground so you got maybe 13V from the 12V regulator, though it
took me a long time to work out why my battery wouldn't charge, turns
out the bulb went on the dashboard, no ground on the regulator,
alternator didn't charge the battery, thus car wouldn't start....
Fun story, but not applicable to the original poster's '91 Acclaim -- not
even a little bit. Also, "12v" automotive voltage regulators have set
points of between 13.8 and 15.1 volts. A regulator with a set point of 12v
would not charge the battery. |
|
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| Back to top |
|
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Daniel J. Stern
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:40 am Post subject:
Re: alternator circuit question |
|
|
On Sun, 21 Nov 2004, Jon G. wrote:
| Quote: | Hi D.S.,
We rigged it up like you said, and the thing works!
|
Once again the forces of goodness and light triumph over the forces of
rottenness and dark.
| Quote: | I got a voltage regulator at Advance Auto from off your list
|
Which one did you wind up getting?
| Quote: | wired everything, and now there's 14 volts of charge on the battery.
|
Did you have to put a resistor across the original field wires to keep the
Check Engine light from coming on?
| Quote: | Thank you for your help. It saved me from having to get another
computer.
|
N/P, glad to help.
DS (Those who said this wouldn't work: Neener-neener-neener.) |
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| Back to top |
|
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Jon G.
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:33 am Post subject:
Re: alternator circuit question |
|
|
This idea of installing an external voltage regulator to bypass
a faulty computer, doesn't work. I put one on and it charged at
14 volts for about a day, then it jumped to 18 volts. I tried a
different brand voltage regulator, and it did the same. The
battery is boiling and smells like sulfur, the high beams went
out, and I'm in the hole for 2 voltage regulators that work like
junk.
I have a 7 watt 1.2 ohm ceramic resistor out of a TV set. It
can only handle 2 amps. If I put it in series between the
regulator and the alternator field, it should drop the voltage
to the field by 3 volts. However, I think I need a heavier duty
resistor.
Jon
Jon G. wrote:
| Quote: | I have a 91 Plymouth Acclaim, and the alternator doesn't charge the
battery. I took the alternator out and had it tested, and there's
nothing wrong with it. I put a new battery in it, but it still won't
charge. I checked the fuseable link from the alternator to the battery,
and there is continuity. Therefore, it must be the computer.
there are 4 connections on the alternator
L1: direct to battery, positive
L2: direct to battery, negative
c1: small wire, logic, to computer, activates diode
c2: small wire, logic, to computer, also battery ground.
I want to activate the alternator continuously and put on an external
voltage regulator.
What must the voltage (and current), to the logic inputs c1 & c2 be to
do so?
I have in mind to run a potentiometer between L1 and c1, and adjust it
until the alternator kicks on.
The schematic shows that c1 goes to the coil of a transformer in the
alternator, which then goes to one of the diodes (an SCR?) |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jim Thompson
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:08 am Post subject:
Re: alternator circuit question |
|
|
Jon, Surf back a few weeks, this problem has been addressed recently.
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 00:33:04 GMT, "Jon G." <jon8338@peoplepc.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | This idea of installing an external voltage regulator to bypass
a faulty computer, doesn't work. I put one on and it charged at
14 volts for about a day, then it jumped to 18 volts. I tried a
different brand voltage regulator, and it did the same. The
battery is boiling and smells like sulfur, the high beams went
out, and I'm in the hole for 2 voltage regulators that work like
junk.
I have a 7 watt 1.2 ohm ceramic resistor out of a TV set. It
can only handle 2 amps. If I put it in series between the
regulator and the alternator field, it should drop the voltage
to the field by 3 volts. However, I think I need a heavier duty
resistor.
Jon
Jon G. wrote:
I have a 91 Plymouth Acclaim, and the alternator doesn't charge the
battery. I took the alternator out and had it tested, and there's
nothing wrong with it. I put a new battery in it, but it still won't
charge. I checked the fuseable link from the alternator to the battery,
and there is continuity. Therefore, it must be the computer.
there are 4 connections on the alternator
L1: direct to battery, positive
L2: direct to battery, negative
c1: small wire, logic, to computer, activates diode
c2: small wire, logic, to computer, also battery ground.
I want to activate the alternator continuously and put on an external
voltage regulator.
What must the voltage (and current), to the logic inputs c1 & c2 be to
do so?
I have in mind to run a potentiometer between L1 and c1, and adjust it
until the alternator kicks on.
The schematic shows that c1 goes to the coil of a transformer in the
alternator, which then goes to one of the diodes (an SCR?)
|
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Adams Family
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:06 am Post subject:
Re: alternator circuit question |
|
|
How about going to the local salvage yard and buying a used computer instead
of putting yourself through all that other crap?
"Jon G." <jon8338@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:4h3yd.7471$Z47.2187@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
| Quote: | This idea of installing an external voltage regulator to bypass a faulty
computer, doesn't work. I put one on and it charged at 14 volts for about
a day, then it jumped to 18 volts. I tried a different brand voltage
regulator, and it did the same. The battery is boiling and smells like
sulfur, the high beams went out, and I'm in the hole for 2 voltage
regulators that work like junk.
I have a 7 watt 1.2 ohm ceramic resistor out of a TV set. It can only
handle 2 amps. If I put it in series between the regulator and the
alternator field, it should drop the voltage to the field by 3 volts.
However, I think I need a heavier duty resistor.
Jon
Jon G. wrote:
I have a 91 Plymouth Acclaim, and the alternator doesn't charge the
battery. I took the alternator out and had it tested, and there's
nothing wrong with it. I put a new battery in it, but it still won't
charge. I checked the fuseable link from the alternator to the battery,
and there is continuity. Therefore, it must be the computer.
there are 4 connections on the alternator
L1: direct to battery, positive
L2: direct to battery, negative
c1: small wire, logic, to computer, activates diode
c2: small wire, logic, to computer, also battery ground.
I want to activate the alternator continuously and put on an external
voltage regulator.
What must the voltage (and current), to the logic inputs c1 & c2 be to do
so?
I have in mind to run a potentiometer between L1 and c1, and adjust it
until the alternator kicks on.
The schematic shows that c1 goes to the coil of a transformer in the
alternator, which then goes to one of the diodes (an SCR?)
|
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Daniel J. Stern
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:53 am Post subject:
Re: alternator circuit question |
|
|
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004, Jon G. wrote:
| Quote: | This idea of installing an external voltage regulator to bypass
a faulty computer, doesn't work.
|
Works great if you do it right.
| Quote: | I put one on and it charged at 14 volts for about a day, then it jumped
to 18 volts. I tried a different brand voltage regulator, and it did
the same.
|
Sounds a lot like you did it wrong. I bet I know exactly which step you
skipped 'cause you figured it was unnecessary. But there's a reason it was
written specifically into the procedure!
| Quote: | I have a 7 watt 1.2 ohm ceramic resistor out of a TV set.
|
Quit fuckin' around with resistors. Put the external regulator in
correctly and it'll do just fine for you, as it's done just fine for many
others before you and will do fine for many others after you. |
|
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|
|
Daniel J. Stern
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:53 am Post subject:
Re(2): alternator circuit question |
|
|
On Wed, 22 Dec 2004, Jon G. wrote:
| Quote: | This idea of installing an external voltage regulator to bypass
a faulty computer, doesn't work.
|
*snip stupid ideas about TV resistors*
It's also quite possible that you installed the external regulators
correctly, but your alternator's rotor is drawing excessive current, which
fried the ECM's voltage regulator and has fried your two externals. Parts
store alternator "testers" are very crude devices. I'd post the rotor
current draw spec, but the manuals are in my office.
DS |
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