| Author |
Message |
Serial # 19781010
Guest
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 Posted:
Mon Jan 10, 2005 2:14 pm Post subject:
ABS brakes Safe or not? |
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When I had a new 94 Buick it had a ABS problem that was promptly fixed
under warranty.
My 2002 also had a ABS problem which was also fixed under warranty.
Anyway the last time I had this problem I insisted on talking to the
Buick brake man about it.
The long and the short of it is that he told me the ABS brake system
is completely redundant with respect to the primary brake system.
The way he put it is that even if your ABS system has a total failure
then you can drive your car as if you had simply bought a non-ABS
equipped Buick and is no more or less safe then any other Buick
without ABS.
He even had the front office make me a copy of one of his service
bulletins from Buick which says as much just to calm my fears.
Thought this would be helpful to someone.
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Paul
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:19 pm Post subject:
Re: ABS brakes Safe or not? |
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ABS system preventing wheel lock. The system pulsates brake hydraulic
pressure is milliseconds where you can't. If you are experiencing wheel
lock, you will not be able to steer or control of your car. The system has
been proven again and again that its benefit is clear for in experience
driver or winter/wet road conditions. Perhaps you should do a quick
research in the net to learn more about the system. While it is clear that
if your ABS system failed, you are still have your normal braking system.
The light on the dash-board is a reminder to driver to ABS will not engage
and driving with caution is required.
It is unfortunately that the sensors are not as reliable in this climate.
Typical failure is due to corrosion as the sensors is locates just behind
the wheels.
"Serial # 19781010" <none@none.net> wrote in message
news:deg4u0hl3n6eudibclnjptj9895t34hag0@4ax.com...
| Quote: | When I had a new 94 Buick it had a ABS problem that was promptly fixed
under warranty.
My 2002 also had a ABS problem which was also fixed under warranty.
Anyway the last time I had this problem I insisted on talking to the
Buick brake man about it.
The long and the short of it is that he told me the ABS brake system
is completely redundant with respect to the primary brake system.
The way he put it is that even if your ABS system has a total failure
then you can drive your car as if you had simply bought a non-ABS
equipped Buick and is no more or less safe then any other Buick
without ABS.
He even had the front office make me a copy of one of his service
bulletins from Buick which says as much just to calm my fears.
Thought this would be helpful to someone.
|
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| Back to top |
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Serial # 19781010
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:34 pm Post subject:
Re: ABS brakes Safe or not? |
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On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:19:45 -0500, "Paul" <yahoo@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | ABS system preventing wheel lock. The system pulsates brake hydraulic
pressure is milliseconds where you can't. If you are experiencing wheel
lock, you will not be able to steer or control of your car. The system has
been proven again and again that its benefit is clear for in experience
driver or winter/wet road conditions. Perhaps you should do a quick
research in the net to learn more about the system. While it is clear that
if your ABS system failed, you are still have your normal braking system.
The light on the dash-board is a reminder to driver to ABS will not engage
and driving with caution is required.
It is unfortunately that the sensors are not as reliable in this climate.
Typical failure is due to corrosion as the sensors is locates just behind
the wheels.
I wasn't questioning the value of ABS only that I was uncertain as to |
the interaction between the ABS system and the primary brake system as
far as ABS system failure is concerned.
I live in Minnesota and can think of at least three times where it
probably saved my life.
One time I was approaching a T intersection and tried to stop but
there was nothing but glaze ice with a 18 wheeler approaching from my
left. The ABS system allowed me enough control to swing off to the
left just missing the back end of the trailer and making a soft
landing in a snow drift on the other side of the intersection.
Otherwise I'm sure we would have slid under the trailer of the truck.
After all the truck couldn't stop any better then we could.
If I have a problem with my ABS system I have it fixed as promptly as
if I had a complete engine failure. I won't drive in the winter here
in Minnesota without it.
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Eugene
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:56 pm Post subject:
Re: ABS brakes Safe or not? |
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Al Bundy wrote:
| Quote: |
Serial # 19781010 wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:19:45 -0500, "Paul" <yahoo@yahoo.com> wrote:
ABS system preventing wheel lock. The system pulsates brake
hydraulic
pressure is milliseconds where you can't. If you are experiencing
wheel
lock, you will not be able to steer or control of your car. The
system has
been proven again and again that its benefit is clear for in
experience
driver or winter/wet road conditions. Perhaps you should do a quick
research in the net to learn more about the system. While it is
clear that
if your ABS system failed, you are still have your normal braking
system.
The light on the dash-board is a reminder to driver to ABS will not
engage
and driving with caution is required.
It is unfortunately that the sensors are not as reliable in this
climate.
Typical failure is due to corrosion as the sensors is locates just
behind
the wheels.
I wasn't questioning the value of ABS only that I was uncertain as to
the interaction between the ABS system and the primary brake system
as
far as ABS system failure is concerned.
I live in Minnesota and can think of at least three times where it
probably saved my life.
One time I was approaching a T intersection and tried to stop but
there was nothing but glaze ice with a 18 wheeler approaching from my
left. The ABS system allowed me enough control to swing off to the
left just missing the back end of the trailer and making a soft
landing in a snow drift on the other side of the intersection.
Otherwise I'm sure we would have slid under the trailer of the truck.
After all the truck couldn't stop any better then we could.
If I have a problem with my ABS system I have it fixed as promptly as
if I had a complete engine failure. I won't drive in the winter here
in Minnesota without it.
I believe there are ABS failure modes that can be a safety hazard, as
in pedal to the floor and no braking. The feeling might be similar to a
failed master cylinder bypassing except it would not pump up. It must
be very rare because you seldom hear of it.
Chrysler had an ABS system where the ABS unit also provided the power |
brakes. It also had a pump seal which was prone to failure so when the
seal failed the pump would have to run more often and cause the seal to
leak more and finally the pump motor would overheat and the ABS and power
brakes would no longer function. Many people having never driven a vehicle
without power brakes would mistake this for loss of brakes (and even I had
difficulty stopping the stupid minivan with it undersized brakes and I've
driven vehicles with no power brakes before). |
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Al Bundy
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 11, 2005 12:05 am Post subject:
Re: ABS brakes Safe or not? |
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|
Serial # 19781010 wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 07:19:45 -0500, "Paul" <yahoo@yahoo.com> wrote:
ABS system preventing wheel lock. The system pulsates brake
hydraulic
pressure is milliseconds where you can't. If you are experiencing
wheel
lock, you will not be able to steer or control of your car. The
system has
been proven again and again that its benefit is clear for in
experience
driver or winter/wet road conditions. Perhaps you should do a quick
research in the net to learn more about the system. While it is
clear that
if your ABS system failed, you are still have your normal braking
system.
The light on the dash-board is a reminder to driver to ABS will not
engage
and driving with caution is required.
It is unfortunately that the sensors are not as reliable in this
climate.
Typical failure is due to corrosion as the sensors is locates just
behind
the wheels.
I wasn't questioning the value of ABS only that I was uncertain as to
the interaction between the ABS system and the primary brake system
as
far as ABS system failure is concerned.
I live in Minnesota and can think of at least three times where it
probably saved my life.
One time I was approaching a T intersection and tried to stop but
there was nothing but glaze ice with a 18 wheeler approaching from my
left. The ABS system allowed me enough control to swing off to the
left just missing the back end of the trailer and making a soft
landing in a snow drift on the other side of the intersection.
Otherwise I'm sure we would have slid under the trailer of the truck.
After all the truck couldn't stop any better then we could.
If I have a problem with my ABS system I have it fixed as promptly as
if I had a complete engine failure. I won't drive in the winter here
in Minnesota without it.
|
I believe there are ABS failure modes that can be a safety hazard, as
in pedal to the floor and no braking. The feeling might be similar to a
failed master cylinder bypassing except it would not pump up. It must
be very rare because you seldom hear of it. |
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James C. Reeves
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:57 am Post subject:
Re: ABS brakes Safe or not? |
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|
Paul, perhaps you should do the research.
http://www.hwysafety.org/safety_facts/qanda/antilock.htm
ABS have shown no statistical benefit in reducing accident rates, according
the the folks that have the data, the HLDI. I suspect that the same is true
for those other idiotic "feel-good" devices such as DRLs.
This explains one reason why you see more car models that used to offer ABS
as standard equipment no longer do (added-fee option now). Also, the
response to customers...many that had ABS and changed their mind about them
and don't want them any more on their next car.
"Paul" <yahoo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:xouEd.8089$TN6.387612@news20.bellglobal.com...
| Quote: | ABS system preventing wheel lock. The system pulsates brake hydraulic
pressure is milliseconds where you can't. If you are experiencing wheel
lock, you will not be able to steer or control of your car. The system
has
been proven again and again that its benefit is clear for in experience
driver or winter/wet road conditions. Perhaps you should do a quick
research in the net to learn more about the system. While it is clear
that
if your ABS system failed, you are still have your normal braking system.
The light on the dash-board is a reminder to driver to ABS will not engage
and driving with caution is required.
It is unfortunately that the sensors are not as reliable in this climate.
Typical failure is due to corrosion as the sensors is locates just behind
the wheels.
|
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WhyAsk
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Jan 11, 2005 5:33 am Post subject:
Re: ABS brakes Safe or not? |
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|
After checking the link it seems that ABS isn't the issue but the
driver. They indicate studies show ABS works on trucks quite well.
I've never had ABS "save me" but it has helped on snow. I know how to
handle a slide and slippery conditions. Drove a Boss 302 Mustang through
two winters in Michigan :) Sometimes you don't realize it has gotten so
slippery and the ABS sort of warns you to back off even more. So does it
help in the statistical sense, I don't know. Can it help? Yep.
As far as DRL's... if all people were smart enough to turn on their
lights in the proper situation I'd say get rid of them. Since that isn't
going to happen why not just have head and tail lights on all the time.
Oh, that's right my car does that already (2000 SAAB 9-3)
James C. Reeves wrote:
| Quote: | Paul, perhaps you should do the research.
http://www.hwysafety.org/safety_facts/qanda/antilock.htm
ABS have shown no statistical benefit in reducing accident rates, according
the the folks that have the data, the HLDI. I suspect that the same is true
for those other idiotic "feel-good" devices such as DRLs.
This explains one reason why you see more car models that used to offer ABS
as standard equipment no longer do (added-fee option now). Also, the
response to customers...many that had ABS and changed their mind about them
and don't want them any more on their next car.
"Paul" <yahoo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:xouEd.8089$TN6.387612@news20.bellglobal.com...
ABS system preventing wheel lock. The system pulsates brake hydraulic
pressure is milliseconds where you can't. If you are experiencing wheel
lock, you will not be able to steer or control of your car. The system
has
been proven again and again that its benefit is clear for in experience
driver or winter/wet road conditions. Perhaps you should do a quick
research in the net to learn more about the system. While it is clear
that
if your ABS system failed, you are still have your normal braking system.
The light on the dash-board is a reminder to driver to ABS will not engage
and driving with caution is required.
It is unfortunately that the sensors are not as reliable in this climate.
Typical failure is due to corrosion as the sensors is locates just behind
the wheels.
|
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Full_Name
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:29 am Post subject:
Re: ABS brakes Safe or not? |
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|
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:57:49 -0500, "James C. Reeves"
<jcnospam@nospam.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Paul, perhaps you should do the research.
http://www.hwysafety.org/safety_facts/qanda/antilock.htm
ABS have shown no statistical benefit in reducing accident rates, according
the the folks that have the data, the HLDI. I suspect that the same is true
for those other idiotic "feel-good" devices such as DRLs.
This explains one reason why you see more car models that used to offer ABS
as standard equipment no longer do (added-fee option now). Also, the
response to customers...many that had ABS and changed their mind about them
and don't want them any more on their next car.
|
When I was listening to the news around Christmas a news story
mentioned a stretch of highway 401 outside of Toronto Canada passing
Cambridge had it's first year without a fatality in nearly 40 years.
They didn't mention lower speeds, or DRL or ABS as the reason. They
mentioned strict Seat Belt enforcement and quicker dispatch of Air
Ambulances when in doubt.
Having commuted with thousands of others on that stretch of road many
mornings at 100+ MPH <shhh don't tell our insurance co's> I can assure
you that many highways with adequate visability can be quite safe with
our without ABS. However, no Highway will forgive inattentive drivers
without seat belts in poorly maintained cars.
Some ABS sensors can come on if a tire is under inflated.
Get the ABS checked out. |
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James C. Reeves
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:39 am Post subject:
Re: ABS brakes Safe or not? |
|
|
| Quote: | "WhyAsk" <vwincent@mt.net> wrote in message
news:79FEd.319$V76.103153@monger.newsread.com...
After checking the link it seems that ABS isn't the
issue but the driver.
|
Could be. But drivers are who are operating the vehicles...so are a part of
the equasion that can't be removed. So...in essense the driver is part of
the "system" that is statistically ineffectual in total. The site does
mention that the average driver doesn't use ABS brakes correctly as a
*possible* reason...true. But they also mention several other potentially
viable *theories* as to why as well. But, they really don't know
*conclusively* why ABS hasn't had the expected benefit (actually has had no
benefit at all). Any layman's conclusion we come to is just opinion.
| Quote: | They indicate studies show ABS
works on trucks quite well.
|
Large trucks and trailers...not light duty trucks. Becides, the topic was
ABS on automobiles, so irrelivant for the purposes of this discussion. We
can start a different thread! :-)
| Quote: | I've never had ABS "save me" but it has helped
on snow. I know how to handle a slide and
slippery conditions. Drove a Boss 302 Mustang
through two winters in Michigan :) Sometimes
you don't realize it has gotten so slippery and the
ABS sort of warns you to back off even more. So
does it help in the statistical sense, I don't know.
Can it help? Yep.
|
Opinion. If they helped overall, then wouldn't the data show it? There is
a difference between perception and reality. If something makes one "feel"
more comfortable, is the feeling real or imagined? The data says it's
imagined. If the ABS helps you sense a skid, would you not have possibly
sensed the skid without ABS anyway? There is no way to answer that
conclusively. The results the data shows is all that truly matters...not
what any of us "feel" (or what the ABS makes us feel/imagine as having any
relivance).
What I do know is that for the experienced driver that knows how to use
controlled skidding as a form of directional control, will loose much of
that type of control ability when the car is equipped with ABS.
| Quote: | As far as DRL's... if all people were smart enough
to turn on their lights in the proper situation I'd
say get rid of them.
|
Newsflash...they still don't turn them on (so tail lights are not lit at
night...perhaps because of the DRLs...they *think* their headlights are on).
So, that reasoning doesn't wash. But, I don't want to go down this path
again. Sorry I even mentioned it! :-)
| Quote: | Since that isn't going to happen
why not just have head and tail lights on all the time.
Oh, that's right my car does that already (2000
SAAB 9-3)
|
There are studies out there that show that when tail lights are on during
the daylight hours, there is a corresponding increase in reaction times to
the brake lights...increasing rear end collision rates. The exception seem
to be when the tail lights are completely separate units from the brake
lights (like on the Volvo). So, that idea very likely a safety-negative
solution. |
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Wendy & John
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:33 am Post subject:
Idiotic "Feel-Good" DRLs |
|
|
"James C. Reeves" wrote: RE: ABS brakes Safe or not?
ABS have shown no statistical benefit in reducing accident rates, according
the the folks that have the data, the HLDI. I suspect that the same is true
for those other idiotic "feel-good" devices such as DRLs.
______________________________________________
Modern cars are turned into crash targets by mounting "DRL" lamps with
focused-beams close together and low on the front bumper. The close
spacing suggests distance, encouraging other drivers to turn into the
car's path, and the focused beams annoy or blind oncoming drivers.
DRLs are effective safety devices if they are:
1.) As far apart as possible. Drivers perceive another vehicle as
"Close" or "Distant" according to its size. That's why they will
pull out in front of a compact car but not in front of a semi truck.
Wider DRL spacing promotes this subliminal sense of larger size.
2.) As high as possible. Eye level brake lights introduced on the Olds
Toronado significantly reduced rear-end collisions, and are now used
extensively. DRL recognition can only benefit from higher placement.
Other desirable features; DRLs should be 3.) as large as possible, to
enhance the sense of closeness, and should 4.) emit non-focused
(diffused light), to prevent interfering with the vision of other drivers.
Spacing and size matter. Intensity does not. The best compromise
now is to continuously operate the low beam headlights.
Wendy & John
_______________________________________________________ |
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Serial # 19781010
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:56 am Post subject:
Re: ABS brakes Safe or not? |
|
|
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:39:43 -0500, "James C. Reeves"
<jcnospam@nospam.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
What I do know is that for the experienced driver that knows how to use
controlled skidding as a form of directional control, will loose much of
that type of control ability when the car is equipped with ABS.
|
I'm on my 40th year of driving in Minnesota winters. I live in a rural
situation where the nearest paved road is 3.5 miles from the beginning
of my driveway. My gravel driveway is long and steep with a rise of 90
feet over a distance of 800 feet.
Recently we had a bad ice storm here. It turned my driveway into a
bobsled run. You couldn't even get up it on foot. I had to get into
town so I took the 4WD, non-ABS, Subaru . Using the Subaru in 4WD in
low gear and just inching down I lost control repeatedly and slid
sideways. I finally got down my driveway and into town and was doing
my shopping a few hours later when I see our ABS Park Ave in the Super
market parking lot. I find my Wife in the store and ask her how in
the hell she got down the driveway. Her answer was:
"I just did as you told me-hold the brake pedal down and steer the car
down the driveway. It made all these funny buzzing sounds as you said
it would but getting down was no problem."
It should be said the little Subaru is half the weight of the Buick.
These are the kind of practical day to day experiences that don't ever
show up in any database.
An experience winter driver. |
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Paul
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Jan 11, 2005 5:05 pm Post subject:
Re: Idiotic "Feel-Good" DRLs |
|
|
ABS helps to control the car during braking. So it is up the driver to take
control of their vehicle while ABS is engaging. It is easy said than done
because we are in panic mode and natural reaction is to hold the pedal to
the floor and hope for the best. Experience drivers understand the concept
and can use this ABS option more effective than other. Following too close
at high speed or sudden braking with ABS system does not reduce stopping
distance. A good test would be on snow with and without ABS.
"Wendy & John" <ardanswj@kilobar.net> wrote in message
news:pWGEd.1255$SS6.1083@trnddc07...
| Quote: | "James C. Reeves" wrote: RE: ABS brakes Safe or not?
ABS have shown no statistical benefit in reducing accident rates,
according
the the folks that have the data, the HLDI. I suspect that the same is
true
for those other idiotic "feel-good" devices such as DRLs.
______________________________________________
Modern cars are turned into crash targets by mounting "DRL" lamps with
focused-beams close together and low on the front bumper. The close
spacing suggests distance, encouraging other drivers to turn into the
car's path, and the focused beams annoy or blind oncoming drivers.
DRLs are effective safety devices if they are:
1.) As far apart as possible. Drivers perceive another vehicle as
"Close" or "Distant" according to its size. That's why they will
pull out in front of a compact car but not in front of a semi truck.
Wider DRL spacing promotes this subliminal sense of larger size.
2.) As high as possible. Eye level brake lights introduced on the Olds
Toronado significantly reduced rear-end collisions, and are now used
extensively. DRL recognition can only benefit from higher
placement.
Other desirable features; DRLs should be 3.) as large as possible, to
enhance the sense of closeness, and should 4.) emit non-focused
(diffused light), to prevent interfering with the vision of other drivers.
Spacing and size matter. Intensity does not. The best compromise
now is to continuously operate the low beam headlights.
Wendy & John
_______________________________________________________
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Paul
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:49 pm Post subject:
Re: ABS brakes Safe or not? |
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|
Clearly ABS helps to control the vehicle! I live in Canada where snow and
icy road condition few months of the year. Again and again ABS clearly
shows an advantage for most of the drivers population.
"Serial # 19781010" <none@none.net> wrote in message
news:4fm6u01il3mgaut10m57koki7lar00g58t@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:39:43 -0500, "James C. Reeves"
jcnospam@nospam.com> wrote:
What I do know is that for the experienced driver that knows how to use
controlled skidding as a form of directional control, will loose much of
that type of control ability when the car is equipped with ABS.
I'm on my 40th year of driving in Minnesota winters. I live in a rural
situation where the nearest paved road is 3.5 miles from the beginning
of my driveway. My gravel driveway is long and steep with a rise of 90
feet over a distance of 800 feet.
Recently we had a bad ice storm here. It turned my driveway into a
bobsled run. You couldn't even get up it on foot. I had to get into
town so I took the 4WD, non-ABS, Subaru . Using the Subaru in 4WD in
low gear and just inching down I lost control repeatedly and slid
sideways. I finally got down my driveway and into town and was doing
my shopping a few hours later when I see our ABS Park Ave in the Super
market parking lot. I find my Wife in the store and ask her how in
the hell she got down the driveway. Her answer was:
"I just did as you told me-hold the brake pedal down and steer the car
down the driveway. It made all these funny buzzing sounds as you said
it would but getting down was no problem."
It should be said the little Subaru is half the weight of the Buick.
These are the kind of practical day to day experiences that don't ever
show up in any database.
An experience winter driver.
|
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James C. Reeves
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:59 am Post subject:
Re: ABS brakes Safe or not? |
|
|
"Paul" <yahoo@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:RjUEd.26126$TN6.836026@news20.bellglobal.com...
| Quote: | Clearly ABS helps to control the vehicle! I live in
Canada where snow and
icy road condition few months of the year.
|
I hear you guys...but this is anecdotal. So, it still begs the question.
If the personal anecdotal experience you relay here can be extrapolated out,
then why doesn't the overall data (a.k.a. the facts) show it? The data
(many years worth) "clearly shows" no benefit in the final analysis. Why
is that?
| Quote: | Again and again ABS clearly
shows an advantage for most of
the drivers population.
|
Actually, the data (which is made up of average drivers) "clearly shows" the
opposite. If you have counter information that is credible to dispute the
insurance institute's data, please post it. I would be interested in seeing
it. But if it's more anecdotal, it's really irrelevant and meaningless.
Anyone has contradictory experiences pros and cons in these cases. We can
go on forever with this he-said, she-said stuff. The only thing that is
real is what is actually happening statistically out there overall. |
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WhyAsk
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:08 am Post subject:
Re: ABS brakes Safe or not? |
|
|
James C. Reeves wrote:
| Quote: | snip
Since that isn't going to happen
why not just have head and tail lights on all the time.
Oh, that's right my car does that already (2000
SAAB 9-3)
There are studies out there that show that when tail lights are on during
the daylight hours, there is a corresponding increase in reaction times to
the brake lights...increasing rear end collision rates. The exception seem
to be when the tail lights are completely separate units from the brake
lights (like on the Volvo). So, that idea very likely a safety-negative
solution.
interesting ... is there a reference I can peruse |
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