| Author |
Message |
Robin Banks
Guest
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 Posted:
Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:51 am Post subject:
Re: Brake line repair? |
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On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 19:31:55 -0500, "tranch728" <tranch728@nospam.net> wrote:
| Quote: | the brake line pressure goes up to somewhere around 1200 - 1500 psi and your
compression fittings are rated for ONLY 400 - 500 psi you'll finally get
|
I never thought brakes got that high in psi. Guess I never thought about it
before. I can just imagine what a pressure reading would have been the few
times I've actually stood (with all my weight) on a brake pedal in a OMIGOD
panic stop.
Amazing.
~~R.Banks
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Robin Banks
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:57 am Post subject:
Re: Brake line repair? |
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On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 19:40:56 -0500, Leon Rowell <leon429@netins.net> wrote:
| Quote: | whether you think they're right or wrong. I have had a compression
union on one of my cars for over two years now and have had no
problems
|
I'm not arguing it one way or the other, because I'm just not that experienced
with braking systems. I can repair my own, but that's about it.
I don't understand why compression fittings wouldn't work though. When I was
a kid, I worked as a Land Surveyor with my dad, and frequently construction
equipment would break down. We'd be waiting, and while doing that, I often
watched hoses being changed on backhoes and end loaders and other stuff that
has VERY high hydraulic pressures, and I do remember seeing compression
fittings in use. I'm surprised they can do it (although these were some BF
couplers/hoses) and that it wouldn't be advisable on a braking system.
<shrug>
Again, I'm not arguing the point, I'm just surprised by what I've seen on
those machines.
I know one thing, if I need brake lines on my cars, I'll do them exactly how
they originally were, whatever it takes. <knock wood>
~~R.Banks |
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Leon Rowell
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:58 am Post subject:
Re: Brake line repair? |
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Because anybody can "Say" anything but if you can't back it up with
facts or sources it isn't worth a plug nickel. I already have.... no
problems and no insurance increase. ;^)
Leon Rowell
tranch728 wrote:
| Quote: | "Leon Rowell" <leon429@netins.net> wrote in message
news:41728D71.40402@netins.net...
Joe,
Please site the sources to back up your claims of compression
fittings. ie: ....."They should never, ever be used in automotive
brake systems, and if found there should be removed and replaced with
proper double-flare fittings." Thanks.
Leon Rowell
Why is it there is ALWAYS someone that just HAS to say they don't
believe something unless they can see it written somewhere else?! If you'd
been following the thread you'd have seen SEVERAL people said use double
flares. PROVE what you're saying? Don't bother to believe what Joe or any of
the others are telling you. Go ahead and use compression fittings on your
brake lines. Just do us all one BIG favor. Increase your insurance coverage
because the first time you have to hammer those brakes in an emergency and
the brake line pressure goes up to somewhere around 1200 - 1500 psi and your
compression fittings are rated for ONLY 400 - 500 psi you'll finally get
your SOURCE why you shouldn't have used them.
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Nate Nagel
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:25 am Post subject:
Re: Brake line repair? |
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Robin Banks wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 19:31:55 -0500, "tranch728" <tranch728@nospam.net> wrote:
the brake line pressure goes up to somewhere around 1200 - 1500 psi and your
compression fittings are rated for ONLY 400 - 500 psi you'll finally get
I never thought brakes got that high in psi. Guess I never thought about it
before. I can just imagine what a pressure reading would have been the few
times I've actually stood (with all my weight) on a brake pedal in a OMIGOD
panic stop.
Amazing.
~~R.Banks
|
I have seen brake pressures as high as 1600 psi on instrumented
vehicles; I'd feel safer with something rated for at least 2000 psi
"just in case"
Nothing sucks worse than standing on the brakes hard and hearing *pop*
squishhhhhh...
nate
(BT,DT)
--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel |
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Nate Nagel
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:28 am Post subject:
Re: Brake line repair? |
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Robin Banks wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 19:31:55 -0500, "tranch728" <tranch728@nospam.net> wrote:
the brake line pressure goes up to somewhere around 1200 - 1500 psi and your
compression fittings are rated for ONLY 400 - 500 psi you'll finally get
I never thought brakes got that high in psi. Guess I never thought about it
before. I can just imagine what a pressure reading would have been the few
times I've actually stood (with all my weight) on a brake pedal in a OMIGOD
panic stop.
Amazing.
~~R.Banks
|
Oh yeah one more thing, this is almost common sense but I never thought
to do it until a mechanic told me... whenever you're working on the
brakes of a vehicle, or get a "new to you" vehicle, once it's safely in
your driveway and you think everything is good to go, stand on the brake
pedal absolutely as hard as you can (with the engine running, if power
brakes) - if something's gonna fail, best to make it happen in your
driveway rather than on the freeway at 80 MPH... I've actually found
some problems that way, blew a hard line on one car doing that and blew
a hose off another. Oh, and if one hose goes replace 'em all, the
others can't be far behind.
nate
--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel |
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tom
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:17 am Post subject:
Re: Brake line repair? |
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if you would like the source of this information, go to your state motor
vehicle commission and ask them. if you cant be bothered to take everyone's
advice please, be our guest to use compression fittings. just give us all
the courtesy of letting us know what state you are in so we can keep clear
of it
"Leon Rowell" <leon429@netins.net> wrote in message
news:41730CDF.3020505@netins.net...
| Quote: | Sources?......
Leon Rowell
tom wrote:
the main reason compression fittings should never be used on brake lines
is
that they are against the law, and if found in an inspection, the car
will
be put out of service, and in most states impounded.
"Leon Rowell" <leon429@netins.net> wrote in message
news:41728D71.40402@netins.net...
Joe,
Please site the sources to back up your claims of compression
fittings. ie: ....."They should never, ever be used in automotive
brake systems, and if found there should be removed and replaced with
proper double-flare fittings." Thanks.
Leon Rowell
Joe Way wrote:
On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 09:01:55 -0400, djtcz@comcast.net wrote:
On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 00:14:40 GMT, "Steve Richardson"
stever_sl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I suspect the two pieces
are joined by simple compression fittings, and I'm not sure I want to
risk
my life on them in a panic stop. My mechanic is in sunny Cancun for
a
week.
I am not at all comfortable with compression fittings in brake
systems. The proportioning valves in my old Volvo station wagon are
set to start blocking pressures higher than about 900 psi, so I figure
they figure the working pressure is going higher than that.
Absolutely correct. Compression fittings are NOT designed to hold
anything like that kind of pressure.
[snip]
------------------------------
These places suggest that even with various compression fittings the
tubing's pressure rating is the limit. I'm sticking with double
flares.
http://www.calormarineshop.co.uk/boat_diy/compression_fitting.htm
http://www.mesteel.com/cgi-bin/w3-msql/goto.htm?url=http://www.steelmills
o
ftheworld.com/products/cs/dishedheads/pres_vessel.htm
http://www-training.llnl.gov/wbt/hc/PDFiles/AppendixD2.pdf
=========================
I did a pretty fast read through these links and could have missed
something, but I don't think you have come to a good conclusion about
their content. The first link does discuss compression fittings, but I
can't find anything in it that mentions the pressure rating of the
assembly. (Note that the context is propane gas systems, which operate
in the single digit pressure range.) The second and third links appear
to discuss the more sophisticated bite-type and coned fittings rather
than the ones that are commonly referred to as compression fittings.
I don't believe any manufacturer or (genuinely) knowledgeable brake
expert has ever recommended the use of compression fittings for brake
lines, and with good reason. They should never, ever be used in
automotive brake systems, and if found there should be removed and
replaced with proper double-flare fittings.
Joe
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tom
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:22 am Post subject:
Re: Brake line repair? |
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while this is all well and good, if you have an accident from brake failure
here in nj and a lot of other states, your car will be taken in for an
inspection of the failure area. if compression fittings are found, the owner
of the vehicle is responsible for any outcome of the accident unless they
can prove by paper receipt who did the faulty repair.
"Leon Rowell" <leon429@netins.net> wrote in message
news:41731118.9050209@netins.net...
| Quote: | Joe,
I'm not the one who made the statement.... I just asked you for your
sources. I can tell you from first hand experience that they work,
whether you think they're right or wrong. I have had a compression
union on one of my cars for over two years now and have had no
problems with it, and yes, I have made a couple of panic stops. Hard
to argue with that.
Leon Rowell
Joe Way wrote:
On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 10:19:13 -0500, Leon Rowell <leon429@netins.net
wrote:
Joe,
Please site the sources to back up your claims of compression
fittings. ie: ....."They should never, ever be used in automotive
brake systems, and if found there should be removed and replaced with
proper double-flare fittings." Thanks.
Leon Rowell
===========================
Well...in this context, *I* am a source. Check my .sig.
In addition, there have already been and likely will be more responses
indicating that several states actually have laws proscribing their
use.
Better yet, let's look at the specs for the typical compression
fittings as sold in auto parts stores and hardware stores. Industrial
supplier McMaster-Carr has them in their catalog on pages 121-122.
http://www.mcmaster.com/ and enter 121 in the FIND box.
Toward the bottom of page 121 the specs are listed. Note that the
highest pressure rating for standard fittings is 400psi, for the
smallest sizes, and that the pressure rating decreases as the tube
size increases. Automotive brake systems typically see 600-1200psi in
normal operation depending on pedal and hydraulic ratios and whether
they are manual or power brakes. Also note that the fittings are
listed as appropriate for " PVC, polyethylene, polypropylene, and
nylon with a durometer of A70 and higher; copper; aluminum; and brass"
but not for steel.
Lastly, I will repeat the part of my paragraph that you snipped....
"I don't believe any manufacturer or (genuinely) knowledgeable brake
expert has ever recommended the use of compression fittings for brake
lines, and with good reason..."
and challenge you to find such a recommendation for the use of
standard hardware/auto parts store compression fittings.
Joe
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Grumpy au Contraire
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:51 am Post subject:
Re: Brake line repair? |
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Robin Banks wrote:
| Quote: |
On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 12:03:38 -0700, Joe Way <joe@brakecylinder.com> wrote:
Sierra Specialty Automotive
Brake cylinders sleeved with brass
Interesting. Being soft, wouldn't brass wear faster? I'm no brake expert, so
this is a serious question.
Also, "why brass"? What are the advantages over conventionally lined sleeves?
~~R.Banks
|
Brass seems to be the "catch all" that succeeds stainless steel which
was in favor some years back.
I too wonder about longevity when considering the lack of hardness with brass.
Something like CRES would seem to be more appropriate but probably would
be a lot harder to work with...
--
JT
<JT who has a m/c that needs fixin as they are currently made of unobtainium> |
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Robin Banks
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:06 am Post subject:
Re: Brake line repair? |
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On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:25:16 -0400, Nate Nagel <njnagel@flycast.net> wrote:
| Quote: | I have seen brake pressures as high as 1600 psi on instrumented
vehicles
|
Wow. I never realized that.
| Quote: | Nothing sucks worse than standing on the brakes hard and hearing *pop*
squishhhhhh...
|
If that happens, I think the "squishhhhhh" sound comes from one's pants. ;-)
I remember having to stand on the pedal on the '53 Caddie. As heavy as that
car is, it was quite a helpless feeling, and probably a lot like docking a
large freighter ship. Lots of squealing tires, lots of side sway, and a lot
of praying.
~~R.Banks |
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Robin Banks
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:06 am Post subject:
Re: Brake line repair? |
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On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 21:28:21 -0400, Nate Nagel <njnagel@flycast.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Oh yeah one more thing, this is almost common sense but I never thought
to do it until a mechanic told me... whenever you're working on the
brakes of a vehicle, or get a "new to you" vehicle, once it's safely in
your driveway and you think everything is good to go, stand on the brake
pedal absolutely as hard as you can (with the engine running, if power
brakes)
|
Funny you should mention that. That's exactly what I do, be it a new used
car, or one of my classics.
| Quote: | if something's gonna fail, best to make it happen in your
driveway rather than on the freeway at 80 MPH
|
Exactly the reason I do it.
~~R.Banks |
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Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:08 pm Post subject:
Re: Brake line repair? |
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I have a news flash for you, the owner of the vehicle is always
responsible for any outcome of the accident, whether the brakes
work or not ;)
mike hunt
tom wrote:
| Quote: |
while this is all well and good, if you have an accident from brake failure
here in nj and a lot of other states, your car will be taken in for an
inspection of the failure area. if compression fittings are found, the owner
of the vehicle is responsible for any outcome of the accident unless they
can prove by paper receipt who did the faulty repair.
"Leon Rowell" <leon429@netins.net> wrote in message
news:41731118.9050209@netins.net... |
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Robin Banks
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 19, 2004 8:37 pm Post subject:
Re: Brake line repair? |
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On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 10:08:45 -0400, BrickMason@mailcity.com wrote:
| Quote: | I have a news flash for you, the owner of the vehicle is always
responsible for any outcome of the accident, whether the brakes
work or not ;)
|
I have a news flash for everyone. The laws are different in each state (and
country). :-)
Michigan no longer has vehicle inspections, though there's talk of bringing
them back. Dunno why, since you could go almost anywhere, pay a little extra
and pass with all but the worst car. (And it was only emissions testing.)
~~R.Banks |
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Mike Fisher
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:32 pm Post subject:
Re: Re-blackening tonneau cover |
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It has been suggested to me that I use shoe-polish to re-color automotive
fabrics.
Of course, you might want to test "matte" versus "high-luster" to see how
the patch will look compared to the rest of the cover.
"Paul Spencer" <ps@boynings.co.uk> wrote in message
news:u9f4n01o2bqai1417nf300t25vtkhcskqc@4ax.com...
| Quote: | I have a heavy canvas tonneau cover that used to be black, but has
faded to grey. Does anyone know of any products to re-blacken it?
Preferably available in the UK, but otherwise that can be shipped
here.
There are also a few grease spots that I would like to remove first.
I'm sure I can find something for this, but any recommendations would
be good.
--
P |
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Robin Banks
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:38 am Post subject:
Re: Re-blackening tonneau cover |
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On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 18:32:23 GMT, "Mike Fisher" <biosurgery@earthlink.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | It has been suggested to me that I use shoe-polish to re-color automotive
fabrics.
|
I can't imagine that would work, least not for long. I don't think shoe
polish would have the same anti-UV or weathering properties, or at least not
enough of them for re-blacking a tonneau cover.
~~R.Banks |
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Refinish King
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:32 am Post subject:
Re: Brake line repair? |
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Pennsylvania State Inspection manual!
New York State DMV Inspection Regulation Manual.
If you need more, just ask!
Refinish King
PS
Please don't drive in North Central Pa. My children and family live here,
and I wouldn't want your compression fittings popping and your brakes
failing in my neighborhood.
"Leon Rowell" <leon429@netins.net> wrote in message
news:41730CDF.3020505@netins.net...
| Quote: | Sources?......
Leon Rowell
tom wrote:
the main reason compression fittings should never be used on brake lines
is
that they are against the law, and if found in an inspection, the car
will
be put out of service, and in most states impounded.
"Leon Rowell" <leon429@netins.net> wrote in message
news:41728D71.40402@netins.net...
Joe,
Please site the sources to back up your claims of compression
fittings. ie: ....."They should never, ever be used in automotive
brake systems, and if found there should be removed and replaced with
proper double-flare fittings." Thanks.
Leon Rowell
Joe Way wrote:
On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 09:01:55 -0400, djtcz@comcast.net wrote:
On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 00:14:40 GMT, "Steve Richardson"
stever_sl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I suspect the two pieces
are joined by simple compression fittings, and I'm not sure I want to
risk
my life on them in a panic stop. My mechanic is in sunny Cancun for
a
week.
I am not at all comfortable with compression fittings in brake
systems. The proportioning valves in my old Volvo station wagon are
set to start blocking pressures higher than about 900 psi, so I figure
they figure the working pressure is going higher than that.
Absolutely correct. Compression fittings are NOT designed to hold
anything like that kind of pressure.
[snip]
------------------------------
These places suggest that even with various compression fittings the
tubing's pressure rating is the limit. I'm sticking with double
flares.
http://www.calormarineshop.co.uk/boat_diy/compression_fitting.htm
http://www.mesteel.com/cgi-bin/w3-msql/goto.htm?url=http://www.steelmills
o
ftheworld.com/products/cs/dishedheads/pres_vessel.htm
http://www-training.llnl.gov/wbt/hc/PDFiles/AppendixD2.pdf
=========================
I did a pretty fast read through these links and could have missed
something, but I don't think you have come to a good conclusion about
their content. The first link does discuss compression fittings, but I
can't find anything in it that mentions the pressure rating of the
assembly. (Note that the context is propane gas systems, which operate
in the single digit pressure range.) The second and third links appear
to discuss the more sophisticated bite-type and coned fittings rather
than the ones that are commonly referred to as compression fittings.
I don't believe any manufacturer or (genuinely) knowledgeable brake
expert has ever recommended the use of compression fittings for brake
lines, and with good reason. They should never, ever be used in
automotive brake systems, and if found there should be removed and
replaced with proper double-flare fittings.
Joe
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