| Author |
Message |
Malt_Hound
Guest
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 Posted:
Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:44 pm Post subject:
Re: Serpentine Belt goes bad too soon. |
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HLS@nospam.nix wrote:
| Quote: | Ive heard all the complaints against Fram, but used them for many years with
never a problem...ever. I have switched to Wix or Delco, or just about
whatever
else I can get, simply so that I dont have to take a lot of BS from people
here IF
I should ever have a failure;>) Now, if you put them on with a 48' pipe
wrench,
you may have a gasket failure.
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The seal isn't the (biggest) weak points of the Fram filters. It's
what's inside that is crappy.
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html
--
-Fred W
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Dave Plowman (News)
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:20 am Post subject:
Re: Serpentine Belt goes bad too soon. |
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In article <3vrocqF16d1a1U1@individual.net>,
Huw <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | "Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4dd6261f02dave@davenoise.co.uk...
In article <1134057220.581074.77140@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> wrote:
It has been years since I've owned a Bimmer but I would think that a
4-cyl. would be far more likely to have a harmonic balancer than a 6,
because of the 6-cyl. engine's better inherent balance.
Sixes also have a harmonic balancer.
I think you need to appreciate the difference between dynamic and
harmonic balancers.
|
Since you appear to be replying to me, Huw, I'm well aware of the
difference.
--
*The closest I ever got to a 4.0 in school was my blood alcohol content*
Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:39 am Post subject:
Re: Serpentine Belt goes bad too soon. |
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"Lawrence Glickman" <Lawrence_Glickman@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:u1ngp1ti42i83v8ac2u9ikudsb41fih7v7@4ax.com...
| Quote: | There is such stuff as crap rubber. You know this from buying budget
tires and comparing the tread-wear and handling characteristics with a
higher quality tire. Crap rubber is not ruled out on my list, as a
case for premature belt failure. Other people have ruled it out and
gone on a witch hunt for something more sinister. Good for them; they
must have lots of extra time on their hands.
|
Absolutely, there are qualities and types of elastomers which are much
better than others for certain jobs. And they can age and ozone crack,
even when stored on a shelf in some dealership.
I havent bought a cheap set of tires since 1964, when I put a new set of
tires on my 57 Thunderbird for $50. Shortly after, I was goosegazing
at something, got too close to the car which was stopping in front of me,
threw on the brakes and slid into him Learned two lessons that day.
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Huw
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:54 am Post subject:
Re: Serpentine Belt goes bad too soon. |
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"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4dd6261f02dave@davenoise.co.uk...
| Quote: | In article <1134057220.581074.77140@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> wrote:
It has been years since I've owned a Bimmer but I would think that a
4-cyl. would be far more likely to have a harmonic balancer than a 6,
because of the 6-cyl. engine's better inherent balance.
Sixes also have a harmonic balancer.
|
I think you need to appreciate the difference between dynamic and harmonic
balancers. Harmonic balancers are fitted to most six cylinder engines, are
external and mounted on the crankshaft itself, usually invisibly within the
crank belt pulley. The internal viscous fluid can deteriorate and the
mechanism can fail. With ordinary V belts this failure will manifest itself
as a very short belt life. In fact the belts can be thrown within a very
short time or will twist inside out on the pulleys despite everything else
looking OK. There will be no evident vibration felt by the driver. I would
not expect serpentine belts to fail in such a short time frame as a result
but they will fail eventually. Crank failure can result if left unrepaired
for long.
Dynamic balancers are what make four cylinder engines run smoothly. These
are short or long, single or double counter rotating out-of-balance shafts,
gear driven to oppose the out of balance forces of the rotating crank. A
failure of these through bearing or casting fracture problems will result in
much noise and vibration.
Huw |
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Mike Romain
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:01 am Post subject:
Re: Serpentine Belt goes bad too soon. |
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Huw wrote:
| Quote: |
snipped all over the place |
| Quote: | The internal viscous fluid can deteriorate and the
mechanism can fail. With ordinary V belts this failure will manifest itself
as a very short belt life. In fact the belts can be thrown within a very
short time or will twist inside out on the pulleys despite everything else
looking OK. There will be no evident vibration felt by the driver. I would
not expect serpentine belts to fail in such a short time frame as a result
but they will fail eventually.
|
There are a lot of rubber harmonic balancers out there. A whole lot.
They fail and the belt pulley that is bolted to the weight ring walks
outward or wobbles. The outward walk will eat the side off a serpentine
belt and toss or twist a V-belt. The wobble can chunk belts.
I still think the OP just has a bad batch of belts... Too old on the
shelf likely.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view!
Aug./05 http://www.imagestation.com/album/index.html?id=2120343242
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) |
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Jack
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:15 am Post subject:
Re: Serpentine Belt goes bad too soon. |
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I see on the Car Talk website that someone wrote in with a complaint similar
to yours.
There conclusion was that the most likely culprit was the crankshaft
vibration damper (which has been referred to as the harmonic balancer in
this thread). I would think that if yours were failing to the point of
causing belt failure that you would be able to see it wobble with the engine
running.
"Sam Nickaby" <Samhasnoemail@no.no.com> wrote in message
news:cxSlf.28043$dO2.15642@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
| Quote: | "sdlomi2" <sdlomi2@spam.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:kmJlf.618$ES.232@fe05.lga...
"Sam Nickaby" <Samhasnoemail@no.no.com> wrote in message
news:_0zlf.26977$dO2.
I've been having trouble with premature belt failure for a while and
can't
figure this out. <snip
Sam, I'd look closely at each pulley surface, including idlers.
Sometimes they wear at an angle towards the center, rather than flat
across
the original surface--supercharged Buicks have been esp. troublesome in
my
experience. The idlers have also worn with grooves from who-knows-where
?
These grooved pulleys then wear grooves into the belts. HTH, s
Thanks all. Based on the advices, I'll change the idler bearings tomorrow.
My measurements came out with a full play of 0.04 inch at the top edge
of the idler wheel. If I had a German service manual I'd check this number
but the best manual I have is Bentley which is almost too basic and nearly
useless. Here's more info on the belt issue:
68k miles 5ft-year... = car bought
76k miles 8th year.. = 2" sections of belt chipped
80k miles 9th year ..= all sections of belt splits, some chip, brand
Continental
87k miles 10th year = 1" sections of belt chip, brand Continental
87k 10th year .........= will try to replace idler bearing.
If the effects of the environment is cracking the ribbed part of the
Continental
belt, which becomes visible only after two weeks of installation, should
there be a preventative maintenance done yearly?
Thanks
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Dave Plowman (News)
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:50 pm Post subject:
Re: Serpentine Belt goes bad too soon. |
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In article <3vt41rF17u2pvU2@individual.net>,
Huw <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | It has been years since I've owned a Bimmer but I would think that a
4-cyl. would be far more likely to have a harmonic balancer than a 6,
because of the 6-cyl. engine's better inherent balance.
Sixes also have a harmonic balancer.
I think you need to appreciate the difference between dynamic and
harmonic balancers.
Since you appear to be replying to me, Huw, I'm well aware of the
difference.
I have not seen fours with harmonic balancers, only dynamic ones. I
haven't looked that hard I must admit.
|
Poorly worded, I'll admit. I'd *guess* some ultra high revving ones might
well have.
--
*If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definitely isn't for you *
Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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Huw
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:16 pm Post subject:
Re: Serpentine Belt goes bad too soon. |
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"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4dd649c70adave@davenoise.co.uk...
| Quote: | In article <3vrocqF16d1a1U1@individual.net>,
Huw <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4dd6261f02dave@davenoise.co.uk...
In article <1134057220.581074.77140@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> wrote:
It has been years since I've owned a Bimmer but I would think that a
4-cyl. would be far more likely to have a harmonic balancer than a 6,
because of the 6-cyl. engine's better inherent balance.
Sixes also have a harmonic balancer.
I think you need to appreciate the difference between dynamic and
harmonic balancers.
Since you appear to be replying to me, Huw, I'm well aware of the
difference.
|
I have not seen fours with harmonic balancers, only dynamic ones. I haven't
looked that hard I must admit.
Huw |
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Huw
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:17 pm Post subject:
Re: Serpentine Belt goes bad too soon. |
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"Jack" <jsnob@cmc.net> wrote in message
news:11phq6clf35m1d0@corp.supernews.com...
| Quote: | I see on the Car Talk website that someone wrote in with a complaint
similar to yours.
There conclusion was that the most likely culprit was the crankshaft
vibration damper (which has been referred to as the harmonic balancer in
this thread). I would think that if yours were failing to the point of
causing belt failure that you would be able to see it wobble with the
engine running.
|
I have had several of these damned things fail over the years and there was
never any obvious sign apart from throwing belts.
Huw |
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Sam Nickaby
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:49 pm Post subject:
Re: Serpentine Belt goes bad too soon. |
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"Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message news:3vt41tF17u2pvU3@individual.net...
| Quote: | "Jack" <jsnob@cmc.net> wrote in message news:11phq6clf35m1d0@corp.supernews.com...
I see on the Car Talk website that someone wrote in with a complaint
similar to yours.
There conclusion was that the most likely culprit was the crankshaft
vibration damper (which has been referred to as the harmonic balancer in
this thread). I would think that if yours were failing to the point of
causing belt failure that you would be able to see it wobble with the
engine running.
I have had several of these damned things fail over the years and there was
never any obvious sign apart from throwing belts.
|
I believe so. Today, I ran the motor with the belt off. There are no signs
of wobble. I was tempted to measure the crank pulley with a dial indicator
and check the pulleys/idlers plane-parallel to each other but it looks tough.
All the other pulley spin without effort. The tensioner is very nice and tight.
Everything looks nice and clean.
I never buy belts from the same retailer once they fail. For the sake
of documentation, I'd snap a photo of the belts, you could see it here.
http://www.freewebs.com/nickaby/belts.jpg Picture A is a belt
from alloembmwparts.com, AKA thepartsbin.com, which I had been
fooled by their oem name. This belt shows signs of cracking in a
couple weeks, which eventually self destructs. Picture B (not high-
resolution image) is a pretty good belt, no signs of cracking even
after a year, except for a section missing. Good retailer, in fact I
got many aftermarket rubber parts from www.europartsdirect.com
and pretty satisfied. |
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Lawrence Glickman
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:53 pm Post subject:
Re: Serpentine Belt goes bad too soon. |
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On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 14:49:44 GMT, "Sam Nickaby"
<Samhasnoemail@no.no.com> wrote:
| Quote: | "Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message news:3vt41tF17u2pvU3@individual.net...
"Jack" <jsnob@cmc.net> wrote in message news:11phq6clf35m1d0@corp.supernews.com...
I see on the Car Talk website that someone wrote in with a complaint
similar to yours.
There conclusion was that the most likely culprit was the crankshaft
vibration damper (which has been referred to as the harmonic balancer in
this thread). I would think that if yours were failing to the point of
causing belt failure that you would be able to see it wobble with the
engine running.
I have had several of these damned things fail over the years and there was
never any obvious sign apart from throwing belts.
I believe so. Today, I ran the motor with the belt off. There are no signs
of wobble. I was tempted to measure the crank pulley with a dial indicator
and check the pulleys/idlers plane-parallel to each other but it looks tough.
All the other pulley spin without effort. The tensioner is very nice and tight.
Everything looks nice and clean.
I never buy belts from the same retailer once they fail. For the sake
of documentation, I'd snap a photo of the belts, you could see it here.
http://www.freewebs.com/nickaby/belts.jpg Picture A is a belt
from alloembmwparts.com, AKA thepartsbin.com, which I had been
fooled by their oem name. This belt shows signs of cracking in a
couple weeks, which eventually self destructs. Picture B (not high-
resolution image) is a pretty good belt, no signs of cracking even
after a year, except for a section missing. Good retailer, in fact I
got many aftermarket rubber parts from www.europartsdirect.com
and pretty satisfied.
|
Those cracks...crap rubber. Not able to take the tight radius of the
idler pulleys without coming apart. IOW, no elasticity left in them.
As a test, I =bet= you can bend that belt with your hands, in your
hands, away from the groves, and watch it CRACK right in front of your
eyes.
Lg |
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Malt_Hound
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:26 pm Post subject:
Re: Serpentine Belt goes bad too soon. |
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Huw wrote:
| Quote: | "Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4dd649c70adave@davenoise.co.uk...
In article <3vrocqF16d1a1U1@individual.net>,
Huw <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4dd6261f02dave@davenoise.co.uk...
In article <1134057220.581074.77140@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
N8N <njnagel@hotmail.com> wrote:
It has been years since I've owned a Bimmer but I would think that a
4-cyl. would be far more likely to have a harmonic balancer than a 6,
because of the 6-cyl. engine's better inherent balance.
Sixes also have a harmonic balancer.
I think you need to appreciate the difference between dynamic and
harmonic balancers.
Since you appear to be replying to me, Huw, I'm well aware of the
difference.
I have not seen fours with harmonic balancers, only dynamic ones. I haven't
looked that hard I must admit.
Huw
|
Most of them do have them (M40, M42, M43, M44, maybe others). They are
called "Vibration Dampers" in the parts lists.
--
-Fred W |
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Blake Dodson
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:22 am Post subject:
Re: Serpentine Belt goes bad too soon. |
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Forgive me if I am repeating someone but -
Do you drive the car hard? Redline or high RPM's?
Do you have a clutch fan? Have you verified that it disengages
properly?
Blake |
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Sam Nickaby
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:13 am Post subject:
Re: Serpentine Belt goes bad too soon. |
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"Blake Dodson" <DieInterim@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1134177759.364539.28380@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Forgive me if I am repeating someone but -
Do you have a clutch fan? <no clutch fan
Do you drive the car hard? Redline or high RPM's?
|
Nope. Wife drives car. M44, 4-cyl engine is smooth at all rpm.
60% highway - 32-MPG
40% city - 29-MPG |
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