| Author |
Message |
Philip
Guest
|
 Posted:
Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:50 am Post subject:
Re: 2000 Avalon - SLUDGE Story |
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"Registered User" <n4jvp@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:89d9p11e0jcr0mo3odvk5erp2kch6rmk0p@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 00:08:14 -0600, "Ray O"
rokigawa@tristarassociatesDOT.com> wrote:
the dealership does need to review service bulletins with the
technicians, preferably make copies for each tech and discuss at periodic
shop meetings so that the techs and service advisors are aware of new
info.
This works in theory but fails in reality due to the sheer volume of
TSBs. In the OP's case (2000 model year) the TSB was probably
published four or five years ago. Apparently there is no efficient way
to search for TSBs relevant to a particular issue.
regards
A.G.
|
TSB dissemination is one indicator of a "good" dealership to work for. And
I would invite you to look further into Toyota's online TSB data base that
is available to all their licensed techs. Ever tech can get a PDF format
document of his very own.
--
- Philip
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Philip
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:50 am Post subject:
Re: 2000 Avalon - SLUDGE Story |
|
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"larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1133818259.277124.28440@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
Philip wrote:
At any rate, the dealer really needs to review the diagnosing
technician's
skill and knowledge
About ten years ago, I took my Ford into one of the highest rated Ford
dealers in the nation, Sanderson Ford of Glendale, Arizona, because of
a squealing sound from the front that varied with the speed of the car
but not the speed of the engine, and I mentioned this to them. I also
asked if the problem could be related to the speedometer (old style
with cable) or the brakes. I brought the car in with the wheel covers
removed, in case they had to remove the wheels to check the brakes.
An hour later, the dealer said that my problem was caused by loose
wheel covers. I reminded them that the car came in without wheel
covers and that it squealed when driven that way.
Another hour later, they said the squeal was due to a bad serpentine
belt tensioner. I asked how that could cause a noise that varied with
the speed of the car instead of the speed of the engine, but they only
gave me an indefinite answer. Right after I got on the road, the
squeal returned, so I went back to the dealer. This time they replaced
the speedo cable, and the noise disappeared.
What I don't understand is, why wasn't the speedo one of the first
things they checked, considering how simple it is to disconnect its
cable and do a test drive?
|
That dealer didn't get that big by paying well for mechanics. Parts
Changers come much cheaper.
--
- Philip |
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Scott in Florida
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:33 am Post subject:
Re: 2000 Avalon - SLUDGE Story |
|
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On 5 Dec 2005 13:30:59 -0800, "larry moe 'n curly"
<larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Philip wrote:
At any rate, the dealer really needs to review the diagnosing technician's
skill and knowledge
About ten years ago, I took my Ford into one of the highest rated Ford
dealers in the nation, Sanderson Ford of Glendale, Arizona, because of
a squealing sound from the front that varied with the speed of the car
but not the speed of the engine, and I mentioned this to them. I also
asked if the problem could be related to the speedometer (old style
with cable) or the brakes. I brought the car in with the wheel covers
removed, in case they had to remove the wheels to check the brakes.
An hour later, the dealer said that my problem was caused by loose
wheel covers. I reminded them that the car came in without wheel
covers and that it squealed when driven that way.
Another hour later, they said the squeal was due to a bad serpentine
belt tensioner. I asked how that could cause a noise that varied with
the speed of the car instead of the speed of the engine, but they only
gave me an indefinite answer. Right after I got on the road, the
squeal returned, so I went back to the dealer. This time they replaced
the speedo cable, and the noise disappeared.
What I don't understand is, why wasn't the speedo one of the first
things they checked, considering how simple it is to disconnect its
cable and do a test drive?
|
Cause it was a Ford ? ;-)
--
Scott in Florida
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Scott in Florida
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:38 am Post subject:
Re: 2000 Avalon - SLUDGE Story |
|
|
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 21:32:18 GMT, The benevolent dbu
<relaxand@smelltheroses.com> wrote:
| Quote: | In article <76g8p1pos8cjbjk40re5fg6rm83su3mkil@4ax.com>,
Scott in Florida <JustAsk@Florida.com> wrote:
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 04:03:59 GMT, Merritt Mullen
mmullen8014@mchsi.com> wrote:
I bought a used 2000 Avalon XL last April (2005) with 70,022 miles on it.
CarFax showed it has one previous owner (a private lease) in the Los
Angeles area. Shortly after I had it, I noticed blue/grey smoke on
startup, but only occassionally. The Toyota dealer could not repeat the
problem. A highway trip of about 170 miles revealed oil useage of about 1
quart, same on the return.
For some reason....people that lease vehicles don't seem to give a
crap about them. They know they won't have to face the problems after
the end of lease.
That is a FACT!! I know a couple of folks that lease and they drive the
crap out of them. Now rentals, I also know a couple of former
co-workers who drove the crap out of every rental car they rented. To
these people they are throw away.
|
Back in the early days of Nascar....it is my understanding that they
raced rentals....I know I did....LOL
| Quote: |
Next car I buy....if it is used....I'll make damned sure the
maintenance was done....or I'm not buying it.
-- |
Scott in Florida |
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Merritt Mullen
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:44 am Post subject:
Re: 2000 Avalon - SLUDGE Story |
|
|
In article <UuPkf.9407$N45.1864@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
"Philip" <1chip-state1@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | You stated at the top that the engine has only a little sludge. Now it's
worn and sludged.
|
Initially, only the front valve cover was pulled. I was called on the
phone to come down and look at the engine. The tech said there was no
gel. I asked what he called the black mud near the timing belt end and he
said "sludge", but "sludge" is not "gel". He said that gel had the
appearance of gelatin and would plug the oil passages, but that they were
clear and thus the engine did not qualify for the "gel" replacement
program. The rest of the valve area had the typical golden color and
looked pretty clean. One valve did "tick" at idle, but that probably
could have been fixed with adjustment.
Because of the high oil consumption, Toyota agreed to do a ring job under
the extended care agreement, but would not agree to replacing the short
block. When the tech pulled the heads (and maybe the pan, I don't know
for sure), he said the engine was worn beyond a simple ring job, and said
a new block was needed. After further discussion with Toyota, they agreed
to replace the short block and rebuild the head under the extended care
agreement.
That is why I said it was "worn and sludged." I have a feeling that the
dealership preferred to replace the block rather that actually rebuild the
engine, as the service manager said that they were not really set up for
complete engine overhauls (although he said the tech was qualified to do
the overhaul--turns out the tech is an old drag racing buddy of my son--he
with a Corvette, my son with a Dodge Challenger). So the service manager
may have exaggerated the problem to Toyota in order to get the short block
and to avoid rebuilding in the shop (just speculation on my part).
| Quote: | At any rate, the dealer really needs to review the diagnosing technician's
skill and knowledge to say nothing of the service department's
responsibility to keep its technicians advised of service bulletins as they
are published.
|
The service manager did know about the Gel program and initially suggested
that the work might be done under that. He gave me a printout of the
bulletin. He apparently did not know about the valve cover
baffle/ventilation issue until I advised him and he confirmed it with
Toyota.
This dealer, by the way, is also a Chevy/Buick dealer and there service
department is much more experienced repairing those cars. The service
manager said that they do a fair amount of Toyota transmission work, but
almost never have to repair the engine itself (other than routine
maintenance--valves, belts, water pumps, etc.). I think he said they have
seen only two Toyota engine failures over the past ten years.
Merritt |
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Merritt Mullen
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:49 am Post subject:
Re: 2000 Avalon - SLUDGE Story |
|
|
In article <76g8p1pos8cjbjk40re5fg6rm83su3mkil@4ax.com>,
Scott in Florida <JustAsk@Florida.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 04:03:59 GMT, Merritt Mullen
mmullen8014@mchsi.com> wrote:
I bought a used 2000 Avalon XL last April (2005) with 70,022 miles on it.
CarFax showed it has one previous owner (a private lease) in the Los
Angeles area. Shortly after I had it, I noticed blue/grey smoke on
startup, but only occassionally. The Toyota dealer could not repeat the
problem. A highway trip of about 170 miles revealed oil useage of about 1
quart, same on the return.
For some reason....people that lease vehicles don't seem to give a
crap about them. They know they won't have to face the problems after
the end of lease.
|
Well, if it is an obvious problem, they have to pay for it at the end of
the lease. But something like high oil consumption isn't going to be
noticed by the leasing company, unless the car is obviously smoking
excessively.
| Quote: | Next car I buy....if it is used....I'll make damned sure the
maintenance was done....or I'm not buying it.
|
After this experience, I certainly agree with that.
Merritt |
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Merritt Mullen
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:52 am Post subject:
Re: 2000 Avalon - SLUDGE Story |
|
|
In article <9LZkf.10194$wf.5319@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
"Philip" <1chip-state1@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | "jor" <jor@jor.com> wrote in message
news:taSdncKvXYDZ2wnenZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@comcast.com...
Great story. I'm glad it turned out well for you. I too have a 2000 Avalon
and now I'm wondering...
jor
Are you wondering if your Avalon is really a Studebaker?
Are you wondering if you were supposed to be changing your Avalon's oil on
occasion?
|
He is probably wondering if the faulty baffle/ventilation design of the
valve covers is going to cause him a problem.
Merritt |
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larry moe 'n curly
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:17 am Post subject:
Re: 2000 Avalon - SLUDGE Story |
|
|
Ray O wrote:
| Quote: | Toyota dealer service awards are based on a number of criteria, including
customer responses to factory surveys; having master techs, having all
special service tools, factory service manuals, and service bulletins;
having shop equipment like brake lathes, wheel balancers, etc; having
trained service managers and service advisors; having a parts inventory that
results in minimal down time for warranty repairs; and having a facility
large enough to handle their average daily service load; and controlling
warranty expenses.
|
1. Are there are actually dealers who don't have service manuals and
bulletins in stock???
2. Does "controlling warranty expenses" mean stiffing the customers the
way Ford and Chrysler do, or does it mean fixing the problem right the
first time? I'd like to know which dealers eat warranty expenses the
most when the manufacturer won't cover them, but there doesn't seem to
be any way to find it. :(
3. Do manufacturers ever rig cars so they don't run right and then
bring them to dealers to test their competence? |
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larry moe 'n curly
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:17 am Post subject:
Re: 2000 Avalon - SLUDGE Story |
|
|
Scott in Florida wrote:
| Quote: | On 5 Dec 2005 13:30:59 -0800, "larry moe 'n curly"
larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote:
I took my Ford into one of the highest rated Ford dealers in the nation,
Sanderson Ford of Glendale, Arizona, because of a squealing sound
from the front that varied with the speed of the car but not the speed of the engine,
the dealer said that my problem was caused by loose wheel covers.
I reminded them that the car came in without wheel covers
Another hour later, they said the squeal was due to a bad serpentine
belt tensioner.
after I got on the road, the squeal returned, so I went back.
This time they replaced the speedo cable, and the noise disappeared.
why wasn't the speedo one of the first things they checked?
Cause it was a Ford ? ;-)
|
What made you think that your response was worth posting? Was it the
same thought process that makes you post all those off-topic messages?
;) |
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Registered User
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:17 am Post subject:
Re: 2000 Avalon - SLUDGE Story |
|
|
On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 16:41:08 -0600, "Ray O"
<rokigawa@tristarassociatesDOT.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
I don't know what the current volume of TSB's are, but Toyota used to
publish about 10 a month. For and GM used to publish around 100. I read
every one that came across my desk and even if I didn't remember the details
of the TSB, I did remember that one was issued for a particular condition.
Remembering a TSB was issued on a specific topic is possible.To expect |
every tech and service rep to do so is a bit much to expect.
Familiarity with recent or 'popular' TSBs yes but not ones from four
or five years ago. How far back do you realistically think you could
go.
| Quote: | Toyota publishes indexes of the TSB's s by subject and affected series so a
quick scan of the index can tell you if one has been issued for a particular
condition.
The indexes are periodic so finding the correct index could be |
problematic especially if the recollection begins with 'a few years
ago....' An additional issue is the subject is not always fully
descriptive of the content's relationship to the desired topic. For
example the Avalon's valve cover TSB subject probably did not include
something similar to "symptoms similar to those of gelling in the
bottom end".
| Quote: | I have not checked lately, but I'm sure there is a computerized
database of TSB's that could quickly tell a service advisor or tech about a
particular condition.
Ah that would be nice but keyword indexing volumes of data is not a |
trivial task. The size of the indexes can easily exceed the size of
the data. Even with perfect indexing the size of the resultset depends
upon the client's keyword selection. If no results are found does it
mean bad keywords were used or no TSB was ever issued?
As of two years ago there was no rational electronic keyword search of
Toyota TSBs, subject or number were only the ways to go.
regards
A.G. |
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larry moe 'n curly
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:17 am Post subject:
Re: 2000 Avalon - SLUDGE Story |
|
|
High Tech Misfit wrote:
| Quote: | larry moe 'n curly wrote:
About ten years ago, I took my Ford into one of the highest rated Ford
dealers in the nation, [Sanderson Ford, and they couldn't fix it until I told
them what to do]
I wonder who actually rates these dealers so highly? The car makers
themselves? My father had a Grand Prix that he bought at a "highly rated"
GM dealer. But it took this dealer about 5 tries to get a power window
working again correctly. And it took 3 check engine light incidents and 2
oxygen sensor replacements to correct a problem that turned out to be
carbon build-up in the EGR system. Both of these problems were fairly
common on this particular model too.
I don't trust dealer awards. Word of mouth remains the best means of
knowing how good or bad a dealer or mechanic is.
|
I asked Ford and Chrysler how they rated their dealers and which were
the highest-rated ones in my area, but both refused to provide any
information, but I know that one 5-star Chrysler dealer, Bill Luke, is
pretty bad at diagnosing problems, even if they replace every part in
the vehicle. Also ABC Nissan has bribed customers for perfect scores
by giving them free oil changes. |
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Scott in Florida
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:16 am Post subject:
Re: 2000 Avalon - SLUDGE Story |
|
|
On Tue, 06 Dec 2005 18:07:21 GMT, Gord Beaman <gord@islandtelecom.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | "Philip" <1chip-state1@earthlink.net> wrote:
snip
There is nothing "faulty" about the oil vapor separator matrix inside the
valve cover ... IF ... you perform oil changes appropriate to your unique
driving conditions. Perhaps you know by now that there have been
approximately 3,500 claims filed (fewer qualified) for "gelled" engines.
The total population of those affected engines is something on the order of
3.3 million. That evidence suggests most people can get there oil serviced
appropriately.
Since the oil vapor separator is riveted in place, Toyota prefers finds it
more cost effective to replace with a new valve cover complete vs. the labor
and time to remove rivets, clean, and re-rivet the old separator into the
old valve cover. Also, the update oil separator simply has a couple more
drain holes that are also a little larger. This is not a major modification.
--
- Philip
If there's 'nothing faulty about the separator' then why is the
company changing it?
|
....because it is easier to change it than clean it...
| Quote: |
Your first sentence doesn't agree with your last two...
Make up yer mind guy...
There's something wrong or there isn't...
-- |
Scott in Florida |
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Ray O
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:02 am Post subject:
Re: 2000 Avalon - SLUDGE Story |
|
|
"Registered User" <n4jvp@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:olv9p1dt87gc5ttci3n0ajd3afbv22ebua@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 16:41:08 -0600, "Ray O"
rokigawa@tristarassociatesDOT.com> wrote:
I don't know what the current volume of TSB's are, but Toyota used to
publish about 10 a month. For and GM used to publish around 100. I
read
every one that came across my desk and even if I didn't remember the
details
of the TSB, I did remember that one was issued for a particular condition.
Remembering a TSB was issued on a specific topic is possible.To expect
every tech and service rep to do so is a bit much to expect.
Familiarity with recent or 'popular' TSBs yes but not ones from four
or five years ago. How far back do you realistically think you could
go.
|
Actually, most of the technicians, service advisors, and service managers
were aware of most, if not all, of the relevant TSB's. My co-workers and I
remembered most of them back 10 years or so.
| Quote: |
Toyota publishes indexes of the TSB's s by subject and affected series so
a
quick scan of the index can tell you if one has been issued for a
particular
condition.
The indexes are periodic so finding the correct index could be
problematic especially if the recollection begins with 'a few years
ago....' An additional issue is the subject is not always fully
descriptive of the content's relationship to the desired topic. For
example the Avalon's valve cover TSB subject probably did not include
something similar to "symptoms similar to those of gelling in the
bottom end".
|
The indexes are periodic but one that is more than a year old would
definitely be listed in the indexes. Your average consumer probably could
not remember them, however, people in the profession should have no problem
remembering them.
You obviously have not reviewed many actual TSB's. They are referenced by
vehicle series, production dates, and conditions. For example, the one the
the OP is referring to would mention "excessive oil consumption," not by
updated valve cover.
| Quote: | I have not checked lately, but I'm sure there is a computerized
database of TSB's that could quickly tell a service advisor or tech about
a
particular condition.
Ah that would be nice but keyword indexing volumes of data is not a
trivial task. The size of the indexes can easily exceed the size of
the data. Even with perfect indexing the size of the resultset depends
upon the client's keyword selection. If no results are found does it
mean bad keywords were used or no TSB was ever issued?
|
Searching TSB's is very easy for a pro because they are indexed by series.
Even if you had no idea what the condition is, can just review every TSB
issued for a 2000 Avalon. For any particular model and year, there are only
a couple of dozen TSB's at the most, including the new vehicle specs and
paint codes issued every year.
| Quote: |
As of two years ago there was no rational electronic keyword search of
Toyota TSBs, subject or number were only the ways to go.
regards
A.G.
|
Dealers have info that is not available to the general public, and like I
said, they are professionals whose business it is to remember. The subject
is enough to tell someone who has read and understands the TSB to know which
one to refer to.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply |
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Ray O
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:12 am Post subject:
Re: 2000 Avalon - SLUDGE Story |
|
|
"larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1133852086.425345.185190@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
Ray O wrote:
Toyota dealer service awards are based on a number of criteria, including
customer responses to factory surveys; having master techs, having all
special service tools, factory service manuals, and service bulletins;
having shop equipment like brake lathes, wheel balancers, etc; having
trained service managers and service advisors; having a parts inventory
that
results in minimal down time for warranty repairs; and having a facility
large enough to handle their average daily service load; and controlling
warranty expenses.
1. Are there are actually dealers who don't have service manuals and
bulletins in stock???
|
More commonly, they are missing a few volumes or issues here and there or
they have not filed them in an orderly manner so that a tech can easily find
the right one. If a tech has to spend 10 or 15 minutes looking for what he
needs, he'll pass and take a shot in the dark.
| Quote: |
2. Does "controlling warranty expenses" mean stiffing the customers the
way Ford and Chrysler do, or does it mean fixing the problem right the
first time? I'd like to know which dealers eat warranty expenses the
most when the manufacturer won't cover them, but there doesn't seem to
be any way to find it. :(
|
All manaufacturers know what their average warranty expense per new vehicle
sold is. By looking at warranty flat rate hours and parts replaced, they
can tell which dealers are incurring higher expenses than average. Toyota
does not get concerned about an occasional month with high expenses at a
dealership but an ongoing trend of high expenses could mean that they have a
lot of visiting owners, they have problems repairing vehicles properly so it
takes several attempts, or they are filing fraudulent claims.
Manufacturers will not pay a dealer for a warranty repair if they did it
before but they will pay a different dealer for the claim. The problem is,
if a car is making a noise and the dealer replaces a part, and if the part
didn't cure the noise and they replace a different part on a different
repair attempt, then the warranty system doesn't look at it as a comeback
repair. This hit and miss repair method does drive up warranty expenses so
they would be caught in a warranty review.
| Quote: |
3. Do manufacturers ever rig cars so they don't run right and then
bring them to dealers to test their competence?
|
No, but vehicles are bugged for tech classes and technician trouble-shooting
competitions.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply |
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Philip
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:38 am Post subject:
Re: 2000 Avalon - SLUDGE Story |
|
|
"Gord Beaman" <gord@islandtelecom.com> wrote in message
news:qqv8p11t7f9sjtai256ta70u0o55ou6ovv@4ax.com...
| Quote: | "Philip" <1chip-state1@earthlink.net> wrote:
snip
There is nothing "faulty" about the oil vapor separator matrix inside the
valve cover ... IF ... you perform oil changes appropriate to your unique
driving conditions. Perhaps you know by now that there have been
approximately 3,500 claims filed (fewer qualified) for "gelled" engines.
The total population of those affected engines is something on the order
of
3.3 million. That evidence suggests most people can get there oil serviced
appropriately.
Since the oil vapor separator is riveted in place, Toyota prefers finds it
more cost effective to replace with a new valve cover complete vs. the
labor
and time to remove rivets, clean, and re-rivet the old separator into the
old valve cover. Also, the update oil separator simply has a couple more
drain holes that are also a little larger. This is not a major
modification.
--
- Philip
If there's 'nothing faulty about the separator' then why is the
company changing it?
Your first sentence doesn't agree with your last two...
Make up yer mind guy...
There's something wrong or there isn't...
--
-Gord.
(use gordon in email)
|
For the same reasons you put the seat back down when your done urinating ...
political pressure. |
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