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Corey Shuman
Guest
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 Posted:
Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:32 pm Post subject:
Re: need advice on snow tires |
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Ric- I'll agree with part of your arguement, for the most part SUV
drivers are lulled int a false sense of security, and they dont really
know how to drive what they have.
All I would ask is this.. have you tried a real SUV, ie a Range Rover,
Discovery, Grand Cherokee, Mercedes G-Class, Land Cruiser, etc.. with
all seasons in the snow. I think for the most part the answer is no, or
you would see what my arguement is...
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carbuzzard.com
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 5
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:58 pm Post subject:
re:need advice on snow tires |
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First, drop the term snow tires. What you are looking for is "winter tires."
Winter tires do more than plow through snow. They also help on ice in ways that conventional snows can't. The reason ice is slippery is that a fine layer of water develops on the surface of the ice from the pressure of the tire (we're talking microscopic) and that works like tiny ball bearings. Tires like Blizzaks have tiny channels molded into the tread that suck that moisture away.
Second, the compound, the rubber that meets the road, stays pliable at low temps (freezing or below) and therefore grips better even on dry pavement. Summer "performance" tires have the traction of polished wood in those conditions.
And finally, all all-wheel/4-wheel drive systems are not created equal. For reason too long to go into here, I had to drive a Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 with summer tires in snow. Well, it didn't go. At all. The all wheel drive system has open differentials (if you know what that means) so the wheel with the least traction slipped all to easily. Of course, with the summer tires there wasn't much traction to begin with. And the 3000GT didn't have much ground clearance either and the snow was several inches deep.
_________________
Philbert J Thrombockle
http://www.carbuzzard.com |
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Dodgy
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:06 am Post subject:
Re: need advice on snow tires |
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On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:04:36 -0800, "Floyd Rogers"
<fbloogyudsr@hotmail.com> waffled on about something:
| Quote: | "Corey Shuman" <cshuman@gmail.com> wrote
Floyd, floyd,
Listen to yourself, we are talking about driving in snow, a rwd will
not outperform awd or 4wd, even if it has spikes on the tires!!
You are wrong. Any vehicle - rwd, fwd, awd - that has snow tires (real
snow tires like Blizzaks, or studded, etc.) will out-perform any
vehicle with only all-season tires. It may not climb hills or accelerate
as well, but in every other category of vehicle performance, it will
beat the all-season-shod vehicle.
FloydR
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I don't know about the rest of you, but the only thing I'm interested
in when it snows is staying warm and getting from A to B in one piece!
Save performance for the summer! I'd rather get up/down the slopes and
round the corners in one piece!
Not to mention if it does go all horribly wrong, I know which I'd
rather go hitting lamp posts and other car drivers (ones doing
performance test probably) in... A saloon car or a Land Rover...
Hmmm.... Landy Please!
Oh, and the Landy will get itself out of a ditch nicely too. Yet to
see a winch on a Beemer!... Or a night heater come to think of it...!
Dodgy.
--
MUSHROOMS ARE THE OPIATE OF THE MOOSES
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Dodgy
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:24 am Post subject:
Re: need advice on snow tires |
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On 1 Dec 2005 09:03:37 -0800, "Corey Shuman" <cshuman@gmail.com>
waffled on about something:
| Quote: | okay, whatever, just dont try and flag me down to pull you out of a
snow bank when you slide off the road with you GOOD snow tires.. its
just a ridiculous arguement. All this thread is showing is who has
actually driven a 4wd and who hasnt.. note-- I never said anything
about front wheel drive. I mentioned ALL WHEEL DRIVE (AWD) and FOUR
WHEEL DRIVE (4wd) both of which will out perform your snow tires every
day, Like I said at the top, unless you are driving a escalade on
"dubs" with slicks on them.
Im not sure that you guys have a whole lot of experience driving in
snow or you would concede what Im talking about, you going up hill is
about momentum or condition, your stopping is about condition as well,
you have to have a surface that will provide friction to stop, any
compound of tires and ice will not produce a stop.
-as a side note, Im curious as to how you get a fwd to spin a 360
without serious effort-- the physics are totally against it, maybe you
were mistakenly driving a rwd, which will easily spin a 360 because it
is "pushing" instead of "pulling" (like I state above)
Im not trying to trash on the bimmers ability here, I love brand and if
the roads are wet or dry I would rather drive them. But if you are on
ice and snow they just dont compete with awd or 4wd, no matter how much
you waste on tires.
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Pssst.... I'm with you on this one cos I know what my "real" 4x4 can
do with it's all season tyres...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/18313866@N00/69081451/
I did hit a bump half way through, someone said it felt like an E46.
:o)
Dodgy
--
MUSHROOMS ARE THE OPIATE OF THE MOOSES |
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Jon Blake
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:19 am Post subject:
Re: need advice on snow tires |
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De-lurker for the moment -
If you put the clowns usually driving SUVs (I laugh at them in the ditch
as I drive up over the passes just east of Seattle in my plain Jane
primitive 4 wheel drive Jeep Cherokee), it's laughable to think that a
rear wheel drive vehicle with snow tires will out perform a 4 wheel drive
vehicle in the snow. I used to have an Audi quattro and it would give my
Jeep a run for its money no doubt - that is until the snow really piled up
and the Audi got high centered. Now, I have and love an '05 330Ci. But
when the white stuff falls and the idiots in Seattle start slipping around
or I'm off to the mountains to go skiing, it's time for fire up the Jeep
and leave the bimmer at home.
my 2 cents worth - Jon
On Thu, 1 Dec 2005, Corey Shuman wrote:
| Quote: | Ric- I'll agree with part of your arguement, for the most part SUV
drivers are lulled int a false sense of security, and they dont really
know how to drive what they have.
All I would ask is this.. have you tried a real SUV, ie a Range Rover,
Discovery, Grand Cherokee, Mercedes G-Class, Land Cruiser, etc.. with
all seasons in the snow. I think for the most part the answer is no, or
you would see what my arguement is... |
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Corey Shuman
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:22 am Post subject:
Re: need advice on snow tires |
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Im sure that with some good snow tires the average 5 series could make
it through that mud and probably take a solid 90 degree turn without
slipping too... ;) |
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Floyd Rogers
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:14 am Post subject:
Re: need advice on snow tires |
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"Dodgy" <Dodgy@earth.planet.universe> wrote
| Quote: | I don't know about the rest of you, but the only thing I'm interested
in when it snows is staying warm and getting from A to B in one piece!
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Actually, I drive an AWD 330xi with Michelin Pilot Alpine snow tires
(it has Pilot MXM on it during the summer). I run rings around my
wife's Highlander AWD with all-seasons, and for that matter around
my 4x4 Toyota pickup with all-seasons.
FloydR |
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Corey Shuman
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:50 am Post subject:
Re: need advice on snow tires |
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Did you put your toyota in 4wd before attempting your test, memory
serves that without locking in, the toyota runs in rwd unless locked
in...
As to the rest your making my point for me... AWD will outperform rwd
(your toyota)... |
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Floyd Rogers
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:18 am Post subject:
Re: need advice on snow tires |
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"Corey Shuman" <cshuman@gmail.com> wrote
| Quote: | Did you put your toyota in 4wd before attempting your test, memory
serves that without locking in, the toyota runs in rwd unless locked
in...
As to the rest your making my point for me... AWD will outperform rwd
(your toyota)...
|
Actually - and you seem to have reading comprehension problems since
you don't know that and I included it in my post specifically - the
Highlander
is AWD (just like my 330xi). The truck (a T100 SR5) is a 4x4 with auto-
locking hubs, no need to stop and get out. My car doesn't slip at all going
up our drive in Cle Elum (as long as it's not so deep to high-center), but
neither the Highlander or T100 get up (in the same conditions) without
slipping and spinning. They also won't go where they're pointed, won't
stop at the bottom of the drive, won't go around corners without slipping
or slewing that my 330xi does easily, etc., etc.
Let me assure you: snow tires are AT LEAST as much better than
all-season tires in the snow as high-end summer tires (like Pilot PS2,
Goodyear F1 GS-D3) are better on roads than all-seasons.
Let me remind you of a couple of well-known saws: 1) the best
performance upgrade is driver-training; 2) the 2nd best is better
tires.
FloydR |
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Corey Shuman
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:43 am Post subject:
Re: need advice on snow tires |
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Floyd- dont get testy, remeber, my main point was that an AWD or 4wd
(usually SUV) will outperform a rear wheel drive. None of your vehicles
listed are rear wheel drive. That said your assertion of tires is
completely true, snow tires on an AWD will out perform "all seasons" on
an AWD. This was never an issue. Look at the beginning-- "an 02 525
wagon...".
(Oh, and I think most 4wds allow for the hubs to be locked from
inside... ;), but if you have a decent 4wd you will be able to lock
your center diff and split power between your front and rear... most
toyota transfer cases (Exception made for Cruisers)act similar to AWD
and you can end up with one wheel getting all power)
The issue was put forth that a rwd with snow tires would outperform a
SUV (presumably with AWD or 4WD) with all seasons. Which is where I had
issue.
I agree that 90% of what a vehicle does is from the driver, thats not
really an upgrade though. No one told Mike to have his wife go take
driving lessons. She is making do with what she has at hand. Which is
the core of my arguement.
Your bimmer isnt a snow machine and your SUV isnt a track racer.
Comparing the two is retarded...
(no matter what tires you put on it.) |
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Floyd Rogers
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:25 am Post subject:
Re: need advice on snow tires |
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"Corey Shuman" <cshuman@gmail.com> wrote
| Quote: | (Oh, and I think most 4wds allow for the hubs to be locked from
inside... ;),
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Actually, most don't. Even many Toyotas don't.
| Quote: | The issue was put forth that a rwd with snow tires would outperform a
SUV (presumably with AWD or 4WD) with all seasons. Which is where I had
issue.
|
And you are still wrong. "Perform" when related to automobiles doesn't
mean just acceleration. Cornering and braking are just as important,
and as I have said before - as have others - a snow-tire equipped car
will outperform an all-season equipped one in at least those two areas.
Know what the difference that 4wd makes? It just means that you get
stuck DEEPER in the woods. But without snow tires, an suv with awd/4wd
won't even get to the woods.
FloydR |
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Toby
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:40 am Post subject:
Re: need advice on snow tires |
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On 1 Dec 2005 09:03:37 -0800, "Corey Shuman" <cshuman@gmail.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | okay, whatever, just dont try and flag me down to pull you out of a
snow bank when you slide off the road with you GOOD snow tires.. its
just a ridiculous arguement. All this thread is showing is who has
actually driven a 4wd and who hasnt.. note-- I never said anything
about front wheel drive. I mentioned ALL WHEEL DRIVE (AWD) and FOUR
WHEEL DRIVE (4wd) both of which will out perform your snow tires every
day, Like I said at the top, unless you are driving a escalade on
"dubs" with slicks on them.
Im not sure that you guys have a whole lot of experience driving in
snow or you would concede what Im talking about, you going up hill is
about momentum or condition, your stopping is about condition as well,
you have to have a surface that will provide friction to stop, any
compound of tires and ice will not produce a stop.
-as a side note, Im curious as to how you get a fwd to spin a 360
without serious effort-- the physics are totally against it, maybe you
were mistakenly driving a rwd, which will easily spin a 360 because it
is "pushing" instead of "pulling" (like I state above)
|
See, up to this point I was willing to listen to you. Now I know
you're clueless. Thanks for clearing that up! |
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330xi@canada
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:01 am Post subject:
Re: need advice on snow tires |
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you tell 'em Floyd
Most SUV's are also just ill handling, front heavy FWD vehicles until there
is wheel
slip and then the other wheels try to help regain traction.
I'll take snows any day and continue to laugh at all the SUV's stuck in the
ditch
as i drive by because they completely loose control when they try to stop.
Last weeks black ice morning i saw 13 on my way to work and alot more
tracks heading up the curb and into the ditch.
total agreement as always, Floyd
330xi@canada.com
"Floyd Rogers" <fbloogyudsr@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:11ov8kjsa53l0db@corp.supernews.com...
| Quote: | "Corey Shuman" <cshuman@gmail.com> wrote
(Oh, and I think most 4wds allow for the hubs to be locked from
inside... ;),
Actually, most don't. Even many Toyotas don't.
The issue was put forth that a rwd with snow tires would outperform a
SUV (presumably with AWD or 4WD) with all seasons. Which is where I had
issue.
And you are still wrong. "Perform" when related to automobiles doesn't
mean just acceleration. Cornering and braking are just as important,
and as I have said before - as have others - a snow-tire equipped car
will outperform an all-season equipped one in at least those two areas.
Know what the difference that 4wd makes? It just means that you get
stuck DEEPER in the woods. But without snow tires, an suv with awd/4wd
won't even get to the woods.
FloydR |
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Malt_Hound
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:40 pm Post subject:
Re: need advice on snow tires |
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Corey Shuman wrote:
| Quote: | Floyd- dont get testy, remeber, my main point was that an AWD or 4wd
(usually SUV) will outperform a rear wheel drive. None of your vehicles
listed are rear wheel drive. That said your assertion of tires is
completely true, snow tires on an AWD will out perform "all seasons" on
an AWD. This was never an issue. Look at the beginning-- "an 02 525
wagon...".
(Oh, and I think most 4wds allow for the hubs to be locked from
inside... ;), but if you have a decent 4wd you will be able to lock
your center diff and split power between your front and rear... most
toyota transfer cases (Exception made for Cruisers)act similar to AWD
and you can end up with one wheel getting all power)
The issue was put forth that a rwd with snow tires would outperform a
SUV (presumably with AWD or 4WD) with all seasons. Which is where I had
issue.
I agree that 90% of what a vehicle does is from the driver, thats not
really an upgrade though. No one told Mike to have his wife go take
driving lessons. She is making do with what she has at hand. Which is
the core of my arguement.
Your bimmer isnt a snow machine and your SUV isnt a track racer.
Comparing the two is retarded...
(no matter what tires you put on it.)
|
Jumping in here... you continue to flagrantly ignore the original
point. That point being that *any* vehicle with dedicated winter tires
on it is better than *any* vehicle with all-season (or worse summer)
tires on it regardless of drive configuration (FWD, RWD, AWD, 4WD).
The reason that this is true is because when you are driving in the
snow, you don't just need to move the vehicle forward, but more
importantly need to keep the damn thing on the road (steering) and also
not slide into the car in front of you when trying to stop (braking).
Getting it to move forward is actually the smallest of these 3 concerns.
So, we get back to the original question... what is better (safer) in
the snow? A RWD car with the appropriate winter tires or an AWD/4WD
with all-season tires. In (at least) two out of three performance
categories (steering and braking) the winter tires make the difference.
This is the reason that you see an inordinate number of SUVs in the
ditch or against the guard-rail in bad weather. They go like crazy with
those all-season tires, they just don't steer or stop quite so well.
And before you start telling me that I don't know what I'm talking
about, let me say that I live in New Hampshire, where we get plenty of
opportunities to drive in snow. I own a RWD BMW (325i), 2 FWD SAAB 900s
(daughters' cars), an Explorer AWD and a Jeep Wrangler 4WD. The BMW and
SAABs have real winter tires, the Explorer has all-seasons, and the Jeep
has aggressive mud-terrain tires (actually just sold it).
The Jeep and Explorer are the best at getting going when it's slippery
out, but hands down any of the cars (with snows) are better at steering
and stopping than either the Jeep or Exploder. Actually I own 2 other
RWD BMWs (540i and Z3) but I do not fit them with winter tires, so they
do not venture out into the sloppy stuff.
--
-Fred W |
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Todd Zuercher
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Dec 04, 2005 3:23 am Post subject:
Re: need advice on snow tires |
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I have several vehicles to drive in the winter. A 4x4 truck, a 325i and
an old beater Pontiac Fiero GT. My number one pick for most of my
winter driving is the Fiero (none of my vehicles have winter tires).
The exception is when the snow on the road is more than 3-4 inches deep
or my drive is drifted shut. Then the 4wd is picked. But it is much
better to be able to stop and turn than to accellerate fast, so the cars
are preffered if they can get out the drive. The truck does not turn
very well at all especially when the t-case is locked in 4wd. When I do
have to drive the truck in snow I leave it in 2wd unless I need the 4wd
to get moving, its handling is effected that badly. Plus the 4wd
drasticly reduces the feal for how slippery the road is, making it hard
to tell when your in trouble untill it far to late to do anything about it.
Winter tires are great but here where I live in Ohio we just don't have
enough days of snow covered roads to quite justify a set. The local
govenment does a good job of clearing and salting the roads (I hate road
salt). But the roads are usually clear within 1/2 day from the end of a
storm.
--
========================================
Todd Zuercher
mailto:tzuercher@earthlink.net
======================================== |
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