| Author |
Message |
st-bum
Guest
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 Posted:
Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:42 am Post subject:
Re: GM leaving town |
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Look at 10 year old Toyotas vs. GM 10 year olds (if you can find any).
Toyotas are almost as good as new, and it's reflected in their market
value (and no it's not just complete delusion on the part of buyers).
GM's cars after 10 years are belching blue/black smoke and sound like a
bucket of bolts. They are junk. YOu have to pay someone to tow it off
your lot.
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Art
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:20 am Post subject:
Re: GM leaving town |
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Quite frankly, if the only thing wrong with a GM car was that it cost $1500
more than the equivalent import I would still buy it. Unfortunately they
suck.
"TheSnoMan" <admin@snoman.com> wrote in message
news:eGlif.6233$wf.4104@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
| Quote: | st-bum wrote:
Medicare will. Toyota doesn't offer their retirees medical coverage,
afaik.
Most companies don't. Why should they? GM offered gold plated
coverage b/c their union insisted on it.
Many companies don't offer pensions anymore either, although they do
match 401K contributions in some manner.
Health care costs are breaking GM's back with their generous benifits and
add over 1500 dollars to the average price of a car. It is all reaching
critical mass now together with labor costs. Between health care costs and
labor costs, it accounts for over 70% of the cost of building a vehicle at
GM. It cannot go on forever. |
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Learning Richard
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:20 am Post subject:
Re: GM leaving town |
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st-bum wrote:
| Quote: | Look at 10 year old Toyotas vs. GM 10 year olds (if you can find any).
|
bulllllllllllllllllll
| Quote: | Toyotas are almost as good as new, and it's reflected in their market
|
shit
| Quote: | value (and no it's not just complete delusion on the part of buyers).
|
bubba
| Quote: |
GM's cars after 10 years are belching blue/black smoke and sound like a
bucket of bolts. They are junk. YOu have to pay someone to tow it off
your lot.
|
GM makes damn good cars. I consider most of this kind of silly flame
nuttin but a bunch of celebrity roasting. I almost NEVER see 60s
vintage Toyotas on the road...
GM is not a write off. The executives are just taking a good arse
whuppin, because the UAW won't back down on exporting jobs to Mexico.
Don't confuse Republican blues with New Orleans blues.
[quote
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7B93597CD6%2D2181%2D4A83%2D9475%2D419DDD3D4F42%7D&siteid=mktw&dist=]
Delphi Corp., which has been trying to stave off a strike by its
workers, dropped a deadline for reaching a new labor contract with the
United Auto Workers while GM agreed to forgo price cuts from the
bankrupt parts maker.
[/quote]
Looks like Delphi brass is gonna back down... thats what you call
American Values.
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Art
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:20 am Post subject:
Re: GM leaving town |
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"C. E. White" <cewhite@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:I5mif.5933$N45.2978@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
| Quote: |
"Art" <begunaNOSPAMPLEASE@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:dy2if.5881$wf.1319@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Although I am not a fan of my Avalon, it is far superior than any GM
product I've driven for years. A few years ago a quality guru retired
from Toyota and picked up by GM. His major recommendation was that the
components in the cars should be engineered to last 100k miles instead of
the warranty period as GM was currently practicing. I believe that
explains 90% of the problem with GM car reliability right there.
Art,
You don't really believe this do you? GM does not design cars to just last
the warranty period. I don't know exactly what periods GM uses when
designing components, but I do know they routinely run prototypes past
250,000 miles during development. I suspect, but do not know, GM uses
longer design life periods than the Japanese manufacturers. Toyotas in
particular seem to disintegrate after about 10 years.
Ed
I guess my father's 87 Camry is a mirage. |
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st-bum
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:20 am Post subject:
Re: GM leaving town |
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GM makes junk. That's why they hold so little of their purchase price
after a few years. The market speaks. It's worth more than random
statements by you.
The UAW "won't back down". Good. I hope they don't. I hope they
drive GM into the graveyard and then we'll see what happens to all the
fat union contracts and all the fat union contributions to democrat
politicians. |
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Learning Richard
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:21 am Post subject:
Re: GM leaving town |
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st-bum wrote:
| Quote: | Medicare will. Toyota doesn't offer their retirees medical coverage,
afaik.
Most companies don't. Why should they? GM offered gold plated
coverage b/c their union insisted on it.
|
Yep, just like the Republican lobbyists who forced the state
legislatures into promising benefits 30 friggen years ago that I have
to pay now.
| Quote: |
Many companies don't offer pensions anymore either, although they do
match 401K contributions in some manner.
|
Its not about pensions. Its about greed. Its about some fat ass CEO
sitting there pulling down 4.3 million dollars while he slashes 30,000
jobs from the dole.
Delphi should thank the UAW for letting them back down on their
deadline. The UAW could kill Delphi dead ;) |
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Learning Richard
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:21 am Post subject:
Re: GM leaving town |
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Moe wrote:
| Quote: | Philip wrote:
NEW YORK (MarketWatch) -- General Motors (GM) Monday said it now plans to
eliminate 30,000 manufacturing positions from 2005 through 2008 as part of
an effort to reduce its assembly capacity in North America. It expects the
staff reduction to come mostly through attrition and early retirees. The
figure represents an increase of 5,000 jobs from its previous plan to cut
25,000 positions in the three-year period. The company expects to reduce
capacity by an additional 1 million units by the end of 2008, bringing its
target down to 4.2 million units, a level that would represent a 30%
decrease from 2002 levels. The Dow component expects to record a
"significant" restructuring charge in relation to this effort. GM lifted its
target for structural cost reductions to $6 billion by the end of 2006 from
a previously indicated level of $5 billion. It also is targeting an
additional $1 billion in net material cost savings.
It's a new world economy. Get used to it. Bolting on bumpers for 65
|
whatever, dickus.
| Quote: | dollars an hour (wages+benifits) won't cut it any more. Working class
Americans are destined to a working class standard of living. |
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Spam Hater
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:21 am Post subject:
Re: GM leaving town |
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|
In article <gmQif.6970$wf.2134@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
"Art" <begunaNOSPAMPLEASE@mindspring.com> wrote:
| Quote: | "C. E. White" <cewhite@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:I5mif.5933$N45.2978@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Art" <begunaNOSPAMPLEASE@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:dy2if.5881$wf.1319@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Although I am not a fan of my Avalon, it is far superior than any GM
product I've driven for years. A few years ago a quality guru retired
from Toyota and picked up by GM. His major recommendation was that the
components in the cars should be engineered to last 100k miles instead of
the warranty period as GM was currently practicing. I believe that
explains 90% of the problem with GM car reliability right there.
I haven't had a GM product for many years, but I had several in the past. |
There were certainly reliability problems with certain GM parts.
One part I remember was their water pumps. They would usually fail by
leaking by about 20,000 miles, yet the rebuilt auto shop replacements
never failed me for the next 70,000 miles.
Imagine that, the rebuilt parts were much better than the original
equipment parts.
GM's problem is just taking too low a bidder on parts or making them too
cheap themselves.
I've not had a water pump fail with any other car.
| Quote: |
Art,
You don't really believe this do you? GM does not design cars to just last
the warranty period. I don't know exactly what periods GM uses when
designing components, but I do know they routinely run prototypes past
250,000 miles during development. I suspect, but do not know, GM uses
longer design life periods than the Japanese manufacturers. Toyotas in
particular seem to disintegrate after about 10 years.
That's a silly unsupported statement. |
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Ray O
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:21 am Post subject:
Re: GM leaving town |
|
|
"Learning Richard" <learningrichard@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133237288.376524.271580@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
Art wrote:
"C. E. White" <cewhite@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:I5mif.5933$N45.2978@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Art" <begunaNOSPAMPLEASE@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:dy2if.5881$wf.1319@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Although I am not a fan of my Avalon, it is far superior than any GM
product I've driven for years. A few years ago a quality guru retired
from Toyota and picked up by GM. His major recommendation was that
the
components in the cars should be engineered to last 100k miles instead
of
the warranty period as GM was currently practicing. I believe that
explains 90% of the problem with GM car reliability right there.
Art,
You don't really believe this do you? GM does not design cars to just
last
the warranty period. I don't know exactly what periods GM uses when
designing components, but I do know they routinely run prototypes past
250,000 miles during development. I suspect, but do not know, GM uses
longer design life periods than the Japanese manufacturers. Toyotas in
particular seem to disintegrate after about 10 years.
Ed
I guess my father's 87 Camry is a mirage.
A quick google of 1963 impala
http://www.dealsonwheels.com/search/detailbig.cfm/Autos__ID/000630-200508-000055
http://www.dealsonwheels.com/database/cars/000630-200508-000055_3big.jpg
http://www.chevytrader.com/chevy-for-sale-164.html
You will almost never see aToyota from 1963 on the road bubba
|
There are a couple of reasons for this:
Toyota only sold 316 Land Cruisers in 1961. I don't have the sales figures
for 1963 but the volume certainly was not the same as the Impala at the
time.
At the time, Toyotas were a low-cost alternative to main stream U.S. brands
and were not considered collectibles by many auto enthusiasts so not many
have been restored or even maintained.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply |
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Learning Richard
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:21 am Post subject:
Re: GM leaving town |
|
|
Art wrote:
| Quote: | "C. E. White" <cewhite@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:I5mif.5933$N45.2978@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Art" <begunaNOSPAMPLEASE@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:dy2if.5881$wf.1319@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Although I am not a fan of my Avalon, it is far superior than any GM
product I've driven for years. A few years ago a quality guru retired
from Toyota and picked up by GM. His major recommendation was that the
components in the cars should be engineered to last 100k miles instead of
the warranty period as GM was currently practicing. I believe that
explains 90% of the problem with GM car reliability right there.
Art,
You don't really believe this do you? GM does not design cars to just last
the warranty period. I don't know exactly what periods GM uses when
designing components, but I do know they routinely run prototypes past
250,000 miles during development. I suspect, but do not know, GM uses
longer design life periods than the Japanese manufacturers. Toyotas in
particular seem to disintegrate after about 10 years.
Ed
I guess my father's 87 Camry is a mirage.
|
A quick google of 1963 impala
http://www.dealsonwheels.com/search/detailbig.cfm/Autos__ID/000630-200508-000055
http://www.dealsonwheels.com/database/cars/000630-200508-000055_3big.jpg
http://www.chevytrader.com/chevy-for-sale-164.html
You will almost never see aToyota from 1963 on the road bubba |
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Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:11 pm Post subject:
Re: GM leaving town |
|
|
Ray O wrote:
| Quote: | "Learning Richard" <learningrichard@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133237288.376524.271580@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Art wrote:
"C. E. White" <cewhite@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:I5mif.5933$N45.2978@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Art" <begunaNOSPAMPLEASE@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:dy2if.5881$wf.1319@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Although I am not a fan of my Avalon, it is far superior than any GM
product I've driven for years. A few years ago a quality guru retired
from Toyota and picked up by GM. His major recommendation was that
the
components in the cars should be engineered to last 100k miles instead
of
the warranty period as GM was currently practicing. I believe that
explains 90% of the problem with GM car reliability right there.
Art,
You don't really believe this do you? GM does not design cars to just
last
the warranty period. I don't know exactly what periods GM uses when
designing components, but I do know they routinely run prototypes past
250,000 miles during development. I suspect, but do not know, GM uses
longer design life periods than the Japanese manufacturers. Toyotas in
particular seem to disintegrate after about 10 years.
Ed
I guess my father's 87 Camry is a mirage.
A quick google of 1963 impala
http://www.dealsonwheels.com/search/detailbig.cfm/Autos__ID/000630-200508-000055
http://www.dealsonwheels.com/database/cars/000630-200508-000055_3big.jpg
http://www.chevytrader.com/chevy-for-sale-164.html
You will almost never see aToyota from 1963 on the road bubba
There are a couple of reasons for this:
Toyota only sold 316 Land Cruisers in 1961. I don't have the sales figures
for 1963 but the volume certainly was not the same as the Impala at the
time.
|
sure, but... did you get my main point? |
|
| Back to top |
|
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Ray O
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:28 pm Post subject:
Re: GM leaving town |
|
|
<lane.walker@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133273504.544508.28250@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
Ray O wrote:
"Learning Richard" <learningrichard@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133237288.376524.271580@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Art wrote:
"C. E. White" <cewhite@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:I5mif.5933$N45.2978@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Art" <begunaNOSPAMPLEASE@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:dy2if.5881$wf.1319@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Although I am not a fan of my Avalon, it is far superior than any
GM
product I've driven for years. A few years ago a quality guru
retired
from Toyota and picked up by GM. His major recommendation was that
the
components in the cars should be engineered to last 100k miles
instead
of
the warranty period as GM was currently practicing. I believe that
explains 90% of the problem with GM car reliability right there.
Art,
You don't really believe this do you? GM does not design cars to
just
last
the warranty period. I don't know exactly what periods GM uses when
designing components, but I do know they routinely run prototypes
past
250,000 miles during development. I suspect, but do not know, GM
uses
longer design life periods than the Japanese manufacturers. Toyotas
in
particular seem to disintegrate after about 10 years.
Ed
I guess my father's 87 Camry is a mirage.
A quick google of 1963 impala
http://www.dealsonwheels.com/search/detailbig.cfm/Autos__ID/000630-200508-000055
http://www.dealsonwheels.com/database/cars/000630-200508-000055_3big.jpg
http://www.chevytrader.com/chevy-for-sale-164.html
You will almost never see aToyota from 1963 on the road bubba
There are a couple of reasons for this:
Toyota only sold 316 Land Cruisers in 1961. I don't have the sales
figures
for 1963 but the volume certainly was not the same as the Impala at the
time.
sure, but... did you get my main point?
|
Which point was yours? I didn't notice a previous post from lane walker in
this thread.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Learning Richard
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:28 am Post subject:
Re: GM leaving town |
|
|
Ray O wrote:
| Quote: | lane.walker@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133273504.544508.28250@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Ray O wrote:
"Learning Richard" <learningrichard@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133237288.376524.271580@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Art wrote:
"C. E. White" <cewhite@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:I5mif.5933$N45.2978@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Art" <begunaNOSPAMPLEASE@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:dy2if.5881$wf.1319@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Although I am not a fan of my Avalon, it is far superior than any
GM
product I've driven for years. A few years ago a quality guru
retired
from Toyota and picked up by GM. His major recommendation was that
the
components in the cars should be engineered to last 100k miles
instead
of
the warranty period as GM was currently practicing. I believe that
explains 90% of the problem with GM car reliability right there.
Art,
You don't really believe this do you? GM does not design cars to
just
last
the warranty period. I don't know exactly what periods GM uses when
designing components, but I do know they routinely run prototypes
past
250,000 miles during development. I suspect, but do not know, GM
uses
longer design life periods than the Japanese manufacturers. Toyotas
in
particular seem to disintegrate after about 10 years.
Ed
I guess my father's 87 Camry is a mirage.
A quick google of 1963 impala
http://www.dealsonwheels.com/search/detailbig.cfm/Autos__ID/000630-200508-000055
http://www.dealsonwheels.com/database/cars/000630-200508-000055_3big.jpg
http://www.chevytrader.com/chevy-for-sale-164.html
You will almost never see aToyota from 1963 on the road bubba
There are a couple of reasons for this:
Toyota only sold 316 Land Cruisers in 1961. I don't have the sales
figures
for 1963 but the volume certainly was not the same as the Impala at the
time.
sure, but... did you get my main point?
Which point was yours? I didn't notice a previous post from lane walker in
this thread.
|
oops that was me.
My point was that uh... oh yeah, that the USA has been at it a helluva
lot longer than anywhere else first of all... and secondly, we birthed
the auto market as it is today. Yeah. That was it. And hopefully the
same brotherhood that turned out those 63 Impalas are going to get
their voices back so we can arrive at a solution that doesn't favor the
crooks in the executive suites. |
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|
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Ray O
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:04 am Post subject:
Re: GM leaving town |
|
|
"Learning Richard" <learningrichard@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133299691.941256.293260@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
Ray O wrote:
lane.walker@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133273504.544508.28250@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Ray O wrote:
"Learning Richard" <learningrichard@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133237288.376524.271580@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Art wrote:
"C. E. White" <cewhite@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:I5mif.5933$N45.2978@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Art" <begunaNOSPAMPLEASE@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:dy2if.5881$wf.1319@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Although I am not a fan of my Avalon, it is far superior than
any
GM
product I've driven for years. A few years ago a quality guru
retired
from Toyota and picked up by GM. His major recommendation was
that
the
components in the cars should be engineered to last 100k miles
instead
of
the warranty period as GM was currently practicing. I believe
that
explains 90% of the problem with GM car reliability right there.
Art,
You don't really believe this do you? GM does not design cars to
just
last
the warranty period. I don't know exactly what periods GM uses
when
designing components, but I do know they routinely run prototypes
past
250,000 miles during development. I suspect, but do not know, GM
uses
longer design life periods than the Japanese manufacturers.
Toyotas
in
particular seem to disintegrate after about 10 years.
Ed
I guess my father's 87 Camry is a mirage.
A quick google of 1963 impala
http://www.dealsonwheels.com/search/detailbig.cfm/Autos__ID/000630-200508-000055
http://www.dealsonwheels.com/database/cars/000630-200508-000055_3big.jpg
http://www.chevytrader.com/chevy-for-sale-164.html
You will almost never see aToyota from 1963 on the road bubba
There are a couple of reasons for this:
Toyota only sold 316 Land Cruisers in 1961. I don't have the sales
figures
for 1963 but the volume certainly was not the same as the Impala at
the
time.
sure, but... did you get my main point?
Which point was yours? I didn't notice a previous post from lane walker
in
this thread.
oops that was me.
My point was that uh... oh yeah, that the USA has been at it a helluva
lot longer than anywhere else first of all... and secondly, we birthed
the auto market as it is today. Yeah. That was it. And hopefully the
same brotherhood that turned out those 63 Impalas are going to get
their voices back so we can arrive at a solution that doesn't favor the
crooks in the executive suites.
|
Some background on me... Although I worked for a Japanese car manufacturer,
I grew up with American iron and have a fondness for 1960s models. The fact
that may 1960's era cars are still on the road does not necessarily mean
that they are great cars or durable. Although some of those cars still have
their original engine, transmission, and body parts, my guess is that the
majority of those vehicles have had those pieces replaced or rebuilt unless
it was one of those cars that lived much of its life parked in a garage or
barn. I loved my 1968 Mustang because of the way it could smoke the tires
and kick you in the rear when you popped the clutch, but realistically, a
modern Hyundai probably handles better, brakes better, burns cleaner, and
will need less maintenance and repair than that car.
A 1963 Impala probably was more reliable and durable than a 1963 Corona. A
comparison of 43 year old vehicles is not a valid reason to make statements
about the quality, reliability, or durability of current products from those
auto makers unless neither of those companies made any changes in vehicle
design, materials, and production methods since that time.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply |
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C. E. White
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:05 am Post subject:
Re: GM leaving town |
|
|
"Art" <begunaNOSPAMPLEASE@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:gmQif.6970$wf.2134@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
| Quote: | You don't really believe this do you? GM does not design cars to just
last the warranty period. I don't know exactly what periods GM uses when
designing components, but I do know they routinely run prototypes past
250,000 miles during development. I suspect, but do not know, GM uses
longer design life periods than the Japanese manufacturers. Toyotas in
particular seem to disintegrate after about 10 years.
Ed
I guess my father's 87 Camry is a mirage.
|
No, more like an exception. In a typical week I drive 500 miles. I see a lot
of cars. And I never see a generation 1 or generation 2 Camry. That doesn't
mean they don't exist, but it does imply there are not many left in my area.
The roads around my area are clogged with 0 to 6 year old Camry, and older
ones were plentiful when new. They just seem to disappear after they hit 7
years old. My neighbor's Camry is one of the older ones I see and it is a
pathetic looking vehicle for one that is less than 10 years old. My 14 year
old F150 is in better shape. The Cressida we owned literally started falling
apart when it was 6 years old. The paint looked like crap, the "black" trim
turned silver, the interior plastic started warping and fading. At the time
I thought it was an outstandingly bad car, but from what I see these days,
it was a typical Toyota product - dull, over priced, well assembled, third
rate design that doesn't hold up. Of the big three Japanese brands (Nissan,
Honda, Toyota), I'd rate Toyotas best at initial build quality and worst at
long term quality.
Ed |
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