| Author |
Message |
doug
Guest
|
 Posted:
Sun Nov 27, 2005 4:54 am Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
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|
To use your own words "Where did you get that erroronius(sic) idea? "
How about some FACTS to back up your assertions?
doug
"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:VxCdnQvK-tqhtxreUSdV9g@ptd.net...
| Quote: | Poeple can spin it anyway they chose but the fact reamins Toyotas average
pay and benefits package is only around 2/3 of what Toyota pays their
union workers in the GM/Toyota plant in California.
mike
.
"doug" <NOSPAM@SPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
news:7IGdnYJl4YRcsRvenZ2dnUVZ_tSdnZ2d@comcast.com...
Right here, for starters
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=103394
Here is an excerpt:
The wage model between Toyota and its supply chain is not markedly
different from the Big 3's own supplier model.
Toyota's own hourly wages are roughly the same as the wages paid to Big 3
assembly workers.
And here's for Honda
http://www.ofii.org/newsroom/news/040503cpd.cfm
Again, an excerpt:
The foreign companies also pay well to minimize their workers' incentive
to join unions, says Scott, a senior economist at the Economic Policy
Institute. Honda, where employees have never voted to unionize, pays
assembly workers $23.20 an hour, excluding overtime, plus bonuses that
can take it to $26.67.
That's close to UAW wages, on average, for assemblers. Please don't
cherry pick my posting - my point was that Toyota's and Honda's main
advantages are a lack of legacy costs and better engineering. The biggest
problem facing the US auto industry is POOR MANAGEMENT, not UAW wages.
"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:4-KdnYoKZL_EcBjeUSdV9g@ptd.net...
Where did you get that erroronius idea? Toyotas average pay and
benefits package is only around 2/3 of what they pay their union workers
in the GM/Toyota plant in California.. Workers in the other Toyota
plants, where they merely assemble Toyotas of mostly imported parts, are
being informed of that fact by UAW organizers.
mike
"doug" <Honda and Toyota are paying their US workers close to what
UAW workers earn. Their biggest advantage (in addition to well
engineered products) is an absence of legacy costs. Their workers, per
se, are no more efficient than UAW workers. It's the assembly process
that gives them an edge. Again, management leadership.
|
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-rick-
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
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|
"Mike Hunter" wrote ...
| Quote: | That's strange. I buy a new vehicle every year and find the opposite to be
true
|
Worried about reliability? |
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MN
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:53 pm Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
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|
"-rick-" <nobodys@home.com> wrote in message
news:qOadnTO1Er9fxhTeRVn-oQ@comcast.com...
| Quote: | "Mike Hunter" wrote ...
That's strange. I buy a new vehicle every year and find the opposite to
be true
Worried about reliability?
|
:))))))))) )))))))) )))))))
MN
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Ralph E Lindberg
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:01 pm Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
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|
In article <zYacnV6nNpZIJBXeUSdV9g@ptd.net>,
"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Toyota sells just over 10% of the vehicles sold in the US, Honda even less
In total vehicle sales GM sells three times as many in the US as Toyota.
Ford sells more than twice as many and Chrysler sell nearly half again as
many as Toyota. Both GM and Ford sell more light trucks, including SUVs,
than Toyota sells cars and trucks combined. In 2005 GM, Ford and Chrysler
sold around 55% of all the vehicles sold in the US. ALL of the numerous
others from Japan, Europe and Korea sold around 45% combined. Do a search
and educate yourself before you post again on a subject of which you have
little or no knowledge, WBMA.
|
I yield, you will cherry pick your facts to prove your points.
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org
This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read
RV and Camping FAQ can be found at
http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv |
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Rick Courtright
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:13 pm Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
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|
Mike Hunter wrote:
| Quote: |
That's strange. I buy a new vehicle every year
|
Why?
Rick |
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TheSnoMan
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:00 pm Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
|
|
Ralph E Lindberg wrote:
| Quote: | In article <zYacnV6nNpZIJBXeUSdV9g@ptd.net>,
"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote:
Toyota sells just over 10% of the vehicles sold in the US, Honda even less
In total vehicle sales GM sells three times as many in the US as Toyota.
Ford sells more than twice as many and Chrysler sell nearly half again as
many as Toyota. Both GM and Ford sell more light trucks, including SUVs,
than Toyota sells cars and trucks combined. In 2005 GM, Ford and Chrysler
sold around 55% of all the vehicles sold in the US. ALL of the numerous
others from Japan, Europe and Korea sold around 45% combined. Do a search
and educate yourself before you post again on a subject of which you have
little or no knowledge, WBMA.
I yield, you will cherry pick your facts to prove your points.
|
Right now Toyota in number two behind GM in auto sales and closing the
gap (they just passed Ford and Chrysler is a distant 4th). They have not
been at 10% for a long time
--
-----------------
www.thesnoman.com |
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billccm
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:48 am Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
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|
When Ford acquired Jag, I recall a Ford VP, maybe it was Red Poling
said (I will paraphrase):
Short term, the only way to get Jag profitable would be to give the
cars away and charge for the warranty repairs. Since this is not a
realizable option, we must get the warranty costs down quickly with a
dose of quality.
And to further paraphrase, I recall Lee Iacocca saying in one of his
newspaper columns:
If you think American cars are unreliable, go try something from
Europe. |
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Mike Hunter
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:14 am Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
|
|
Because I run two or three cars, A luxury car, a sporty convertible and one
for my wife. besides I want to, and I can ;)
"Rick Courtright" <rcourtright@iname.com> wrote in message
news:4389DB1A.CF387A47@iname.com...
| Quote: | Mike Hunter wrote:
That's strange. I buy a new vehicle every year
Why?
Rick |
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Mike Hunter
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:20 am Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
|
|
Do you own research, I don't do home work for my own grand children what
make you think I will do yours. I suggest you subscribe to Automotive News,
like I do, if you want to know what goes on in the automotive world..
mike
"doug" <NOSPAM@SPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
news:Z8adnTxAQrYUehXenZ2dnUVZ_v2dnZ2d@comcast.com...
| Quote: | To use your own words "Where did you get that erroronius(sic) idea? "
How about some FACTS to back up your assertions?
doug
"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:VxCdnQvK-tqhtxreUSdV9g@ptd.net...
Poeple can spin it anyway they chose but the fact reamins Toyotas average
pay and benefits package is only around 2/3 of what Toyota pays their
union workers in the GM/Toyota plant in California.
mike
.
"doug" <NOSPAM@SPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
news:7IGdnYJl4YRcsRvenZ2dnUVZ_tSdnZ2d@comcast.com...
Right here, for starters
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=103394
Here is an excerpt:
The wage model between Toyota and its supply chain is not markedly
different from the Big 3's own supplier model.
Toyota's own hourly wages are roughly the same as the wages paid to Big
3 assembly workers.
And here's for Honda
http://www.ofii.org/newsroom/news/040503cpd.cfm
Again, an excerpt:
The foreign companies also pay well to minimize their workers' incentive
to join unions, says Scott, a senior economist at the Economic Policy
Institute. Honda, where employees have never voted to unionize, pays
assembly workers $23.20 an hour, excluding overtime, plus bonuses that
can take it to $26.67.
That's close to UAW wages, on average, for assemblers. Please don't
cherry pick my posting - my point was that Toyota's and Honda's main
advantages are a lack of legacy costs and better engineering. The
biggest problem facing the US auto industry is POOR MANAGEMENT, not UAW
wages.
"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:4-KdnYoKZL_EcBjeUSdV9g@ptd.net...
Where did you get that erroronius idea? Toyotas average pay and
benefits package is only around 2/3 of what they pay their union
workers in the GM/Toyota plant in California.. Workers in the other
Toyota plants, where they merely assemble Toyotas of mostly imported
parts, are being informed of that fact by UAW organizers.
mike
"doug" <Honda and Toyota are paying their US workers close to what
UAW workers earn. Their biggest advantage (in addition to well
engineered products) is an absence of legacy costs. Their workers, per
se, are no more efficient than UAW workers. It's the assembly process
that gives them an edge. Again, management leadership.
|
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doug
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:23 am Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
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|
Just as I thought - you don't have any. You're a fraud.
"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:sEGdnVKJB9WsohfeUSdV9g@ptd.net...
| Quote: | Do you own research, I don't do home work for my own grand children what
make you think I will do yours. I suggest you subscribe to Automotive
News, like I do, if you want to know what goes on in the automotive
world..
mike
"doug" <NOSPAM@SPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
news:Z8adnTxAQrYUehXenZ2dnUVZ_v2dnZ2d@comcast.com...
To use your own words "Where did you get that erroronius(sic) idea? "
How about some FACTS to back up your assertions?
doug
"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:VxCdnQvK-tqhtxreUSdV9g@ptd.net...
Poeple can spin it anyway they chose but the fact reamins Toyotas
average pay and benefits package is only around 2/3 of what Toyota pays
their union workers in the GM/Toyota plant in California.
mike
.
"doug" <NOSPAM@SPAMFREE.com> wrote in message
news:7IGdnYJl4YRcsRvenZ2dnUVZ_tSdnZ2d@comcast.com...
Right here, for starters
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=103394
Here is an excerpt:
The wage model between Toyota and its supply chain is not markedly
different from the Big 3's own supplier model.
Toyota's own hourly wages are roughly the same as the wages paid to Big
3 assembly workers.
And here's for Honda
http://www.ofii.org/newsroom/news/040503cpd.cfm
Again, an excerpt:
The foreign companies also pay well to minimize their workers'
incentive to join unions, says Scott, a senior economist at the
Economic Policy Institute. Honda, where employees have never voted to
unionize, pays assembly workers $23.20 an hour, excluding overtime,
plus bonuses that can take it to $26.67.
That's close to UAW wages, on average, for assemblers. Please don't
cherry pick my posting - my point was that Toyota's and Honda's main
advantages are a lack of legacy costs and better engineering. The
biggest problem facing the US auto industry is POOR MANAGEMENT, not UAW
wages.
"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:4-KdnYoKZL_EcBjeUSdV9g@ptd.net...
Where did you get that erroronius idea? Toyotas average pay and
benefits package is only around 2/3 of what they pay their union
workers in the GM/Toyota plant in California.. Workers in the other
Toyota plants, where they merely assemble Toyotas of mostly imported
parts, are being informed of that fact by UAW organizers.
mike
"doug" <Honda and Toyota are paying their US workers close to what
UAW workers earn. Their biggest advantage (in addition to well
engineered products) is an absence of legacy costs. Their workers,
per se, are no more efficient than UAW workers. It's the assembly
process that gives them an edge. Again, management leadership.
|
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MN
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:47 am Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
|
|
"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:gEednQJNR45coBfeUSdV9g@ptd.net...
| Quote: | Because I run two or three cars, A luxury car, a sporty convertible and
one for my wife. besides I want to, and I can ;)
|
I think you have completely ruined your credibility to
argue for domestic car quality, at least for the longer-term
aspect of quality.
As you claimed to buy a new vehicle every year,
and own three cars, that means that on average you
keep your car for only 3 years! Assuming average
driving milage, you just sell your vehicles whithin
GM/FORD/Chrysler typical warranty period, or shortly
after it expires.
And this within warranty period experience of yours
is supossed to be the basis of your argument that
domestic manufacturers quality is equal to imports?
I think with these experiences you're just unqualified to
argue this topic, and definetely not to Subaru owners
(and other import owners) who frequently tend
to keep their cars for many many years, and view
quality in both the short-term perspective and long-term
perspective (100k + miles).
For you quality does not matter after only 3 years of
ownership!
MN
| Quote: |
"Rick Courtright" <rcourtright@iname.com> wrote in message
news:4389DB1A.CF387A47@iname.com...
Mike Hunter wrote:
That's strange. I buy a new vehicle every year
Why?
Rick
|
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nothermark
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:38 am Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
|
|
On 24 Nov 2005 10:46:01 -0800, bigjim@backpacker.com wrote:
| Quote: | Who cares if GM closes plants. Workers are overpaid for doing jobs
trained monkeys can do. They want benefits and all sorts of perks not
deserved by blue collar workers. GM designs the ugliest cars (exc
vette) with the cheapest interior plastics. I wouldnt buy one. GM
even had to use an Isuzu Trooper to win the Race Across Australia.
Instead of greedy workers asking for more, they should accept a pay
freeze and tell management to put the money into buying better
components then quality will rise and then sales will too.
|
Off hand I would think you would care. When I worked production in a
similar business I figured out there were 2 overhead folks for every
actual producing worker. Most of them were paid more as managers,
engineers and sales people. Then I learned about he outside the plant
peripheral effects. For instance I used to read Backpacker
religiously but I dropped it 10 years ago because I could not afford
it. Folks like you seem to forget that the high standard of living we
had was because of the low end workers getting it so everyone else
did. Now the mantra is that they don't deserve it. Soon no one will
deserve it as no one left working will be worthy of benefits. |
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Rick Courtright
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:16 am Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
|
|
MN wrote:
| Quote: | I think with these experiences you're just unqualified to
argue this topic, and definetely not to Subaru owners
|
Hi,
I wouldn't say unqualified, instead I'd say his comments are very
qualified! They're qualified by the time period he keeps his cars, and
HIS expectations of what quality is, a very subjective issue at best.
For example, IF he EXPECTS trouble within the three years he's likely to
keep a vehicle (which, sadly, so many of my GM owner friends DO), and
NOTHING goes wrong, the vehicle is of high quality. To him. OTOH, unless
he drives these cars literally 24/7, I seriously doubt he can add any
worthwhile data points at 150k, 200k, 250k, even 300k miles and beyond.
Nor can many GM owners I know relative to the number of Toyota, Honda
and Subie owners who can. To those of us who have cars with that kind of
mileage, quality takes on a completely different face: what's the cost,
in money and down time, of keeping a car on the road that long? To me,
overall dollar cost/mile is a strong indicator of "quality." For others,
it's a moot point. The leather, the fantastic sound system, the
"prestige" (whatever that means to them) are, for their purposes,
definitive of "quality." What's the ol' saying, "One man's junk is
another man's treasure."
Don't get me wrong: my family was "all GM, all the time" for MANY years.
But when they were starting to have trouble at 50k and beyond, while
their neighbors with Toyotas, Hondas and such were going two and three
times that long without trouble, they started scratching their heads and
going, "Hmmm..." Today there's not a GM vehicle in the family. There
have been Hondas, Nissans, Toyotas and Subies. Nissan's the only "didn't
go back and probably won't" Japanese make so far. And I seriously doubt
any of the family would ever buy another GM product.
But competition's good for the species: without the Japanese influence,
we wouldn't have GM vehicles that can now at least make 100k miles with
relatively little drama. GM's quality HAS improved some over the last
decade or so. Still, as they say, it takes a lifetime to build a
reputation but only minutes to lose it, and GM's screwed the pooch with
too many former owners, so they won't come back. And IMHO they don't
quite build a car that appeals to the guy who's looking at a Honda or
Toyota, so there's another sale lost. Then we look in the paper to see
rebates of up to several thousand dollars. Constantly. What's that tell
us? I don't know about the rest of you, but to me a "rebate" is an out
and out admission the product was seriously overpriced to start with.
Doesn't matter what it is. With cars, it's even worse IMO, since car
dealers and manufacturers have been suspect for years as it is--how many
other products does one EXPECT to haggle over price on like we do cars?
So, while for MY purposes I think GM makes garbage, and perhaps many
here share my thoughts, people like Mike keep 'em in business cuz they
serve HIS needs and meet HIS expectations. Good for them! We just have
to realize Mike speaks for himself, not the vast owner base of GM
products, and remember NO car is perfect. So his comments ARE very
qualified!
Rick |
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Hairy
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:16 am Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
|
|
"MN" <MN@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:Vssif.24934$q%.14471@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
| Quote: | "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:gEednQJNR45coBfeUSdV9g@ptd.net...
Because I run two or three cars, A luxury car, a sporty convertible and
one for my wife. besides I want to, and I can ;)
I think you have completely ruined your credibility to
argue for domestic car quality, at least for the longer-term
aspect of quality.
As you claimed to buy a new vehicle every year,
and own three cars, that means that on average you
keep your car for only 3 years! Assuming average
driving milage, you just sell your vehicles whithin
GM/FORD/Chrysler typical warranty period, or shortly
after it expires.
And this within warranty period experience of yours
is supossed to be the basis of your argument that
domestic manufacturers quality is equal to imports?
I think with these experiences you're just unqualified to
argue this topic, and definetely not to Subaru owners
(and other import owners) who frequently tend
to keep their cars for many many years, and view
quality in both the short-term perspective and long-term
perspective (100k + miles).
For you quality does not matter after only 3 years of
ownership!
MN
|
You are obviously new to this group. |
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| Back to top |
|
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MN
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:19 pm Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
|
|
"Rick Courtright" <rcourtright@iname.com> wrote in message
news:438ABDA5.E64584CB@iname.com...
| Quote: | MN wrote:
I think with these experiences you're just unqualified to
argue this topic, and definetely not to Subaru owners
Hi,
I wouldn't say unqualified, instead I'd say his comments are very
qualified! They're qualified by the time period he keeps his cars, and
HIS expectations of what quality is, a very subjective issue at best.
|
Yeah, you are right.
In addition to what you write below, there is also a group
of people who change cars every 3-4 years 36k-50k miles,
or so.
See, I have been living in the Western US., for so long, I
totally forgot that some well-to-do folks in the rust belt,
or pot-hole ridden places, like Chicago, change their cars
frequently because of generally quicker deterioration due to
bad roads and bad weather (bad roads are also weather
related).
Many frequently park their cars in front of various
city dwellings (high-rises etc.) where they sit exposed to
the elements, get dented in crowded urban conditions, and
are constantly driven on terrible inner city roads, and therefore
deteriorate very fast no matter whether import or domestic.
Who wants to drive that 3year old dented Buick, or Lexus,
whose suspension is shot, exterior lost its shine, and the
body is beginning to show rust around the numerous
scratches etc. I suspect it makes more sense under these
conditions to buy a cheaper domestic car like for example
a Crown Victoria, than to pay for the Avalon; both will do
the job splendidly.
MN
| Quote: | For example, IF he EXPECTS trouble within the three years he's likely to
keep a vehicle (which, sadly, so many of my GM owner friends DO), and
NOTHING goes wrong, the vehicle is of high quality. To him. OTOH, unless
he drives these cars literally 24/7, I seriously doubt he can add any
worthwhile data points at 150k, 200k, 250k, even 300k miles and beyond.
Nor can many GM owners I know relative to the number of Toyota, Honda
and Subie owners who can. To those of us who have cars with that kind of
mileage, quality takes on a completely different face: what's the cost,
in money and down time, of keeping a car on the road that long? To me,
overall dollar cost/mile is a strong indicator of "quality." For others,
it's a moot point. The leather, the fantastic sound system, the
"prestige" (whatever that means to them) are, for their purposes,
definitive of "quality." What's the ol' saying, "One man's junk is
another man's treasure."
Don't get me wrong: my family was "all GM, all the time" for MANY years.
But when they were starting to have trouble at 50k and beyond, while
their neighbors with Toyotas, Hondas and such were going two and three
times that long without trouble, they started scratching their heads and
going, "Hmmm..." Today there's not a GM vehicle in the family. There
have been Hondas, Nissans, Toyotas and Subies. Nissan's the only "didn't
go back and probably won't" Japanese make so far. And I seriously doubt
any of the family would ever buy another GM product.
But competition's good for the species: without the Japanese influence,
we wouldn't have GM vehicles that can now at least make 100k miles with
relatively little drama. GM's quality HAS improved some over the last
decade or so. Still, as they say, it takes a lifetime to build a
reputation but only minutes to lose it, and GM's screwed the pooch with
too many former owners, so they won't come back. And IMHO they don't
quite build a car that appeals to the guy who's looking at a Honda or
Toyota, so there's another sale lost. Then we look in the paper to see
rebates of up to several thousand dollars. Constantly. What's that tell
us? I don't know about the rest of you, but to me a "rebate" is an out
and out admission the product was seriously overpriced to start with.
Doesn't matter what it is. With cars, it's even worse IMO, since car
dealers and manufacturers have been suspect for years as it is--how many
other products does one EXPECT to haggle over price on like we do cars?
So, while for MY purposes I think GM makes garbage, and perhaps many
here share my thoughts, people like Mike keep 'em in business cuz they
serve HIS needs and meet HIS expectations. Good for them! We just have
to realize Mike speaks for himself, not the vast owner base of GM
products, and remember NO car is perfect. So his comments ARE very
qualified!
Rick |
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