| Author |
Message |
Mike Marlow
Guest
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 Posted:
Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:41 pm Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
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"Rick Courtright" <rcourtright@iname.com> wrote in message
news:438ABDA5.E64584CB@iname.com...
| Quote: |
I wouldn't say unqualified, instead I'd say his comments are very
qualified! They're qualified by the time period he keeps his cars, and
HIS expectations of what quality is, a very subjective issue at best.
|
Alas - a rational thought.
| Quote: |
For example, IF he EXPECTS trouble within the three years he's likely to
keep a vehicle (which, sadly, so many of my GM owner friends DO), and
NOTHING goes wrong, the vehicle is of high quality. To him. OTOH, unless
he drives these cars literally 24/7, I seriously doubt he can add any
worthwhile data points at 150k, 200k, 250k, even 300k miles and beyond.
Nor can many GM owners I know relative to the number of Toyota, Honda
and Subie owners who can. To those of us who have cars with that kind of
mileage, quality takes on a completely different face: what's the cost,
in money and down time, of keeping a car on the road that long? To me,
overall dollar cost/mile is a strong indicator of "quality." For others,
it's a moot point. The leather, the fantastic sound system, the
"prestige" (whatever that means to them) are, for their purposes,
definitive of "quality." What's the ol' saying, "One man's junk is
another man's treasure."
|
You hit the nail right on the head with that last line. In most cases, it's
not at all a matter of if the car is holding up, or fit and finish, or any
of the other attempts to justify preference for one brand over another, as
much as it is the very subjective perspective of what quality is defined as.
That subjective perspective distorts vision and it's what allows others to
see GM cars as rust buckets with weekly trips to the dealer for repairs
while seeing Toyota products as supreemly reliable, trouble free cars for
life.
My perspective is that the GM line offers some extreemely high values for
the dollar. I keep my cars for an average of 200,000 - 250,000 miles.
That's typically 8-10 years. I live in the Northeast so rust is a concern
for all cars - no matter what the brand. Anyone who believes a Subaru or a
Toyota will not rust out as fast as a Buick in upstate NY is fooling
themselves. The cars are their own testimony to what salt does and it
affects them all. This is not to say they're rust buckets though. My cars
look as good as any typical 4 year old car when I get rid of them. I wax
them once or twice a year... or every two years - to say, I don't spend
inordinant amounts of time on this stuff. The paint looks as good as any
other car out there at the end of it's life. All of the manufacturers use
the same paints and techniques, so it is really silly when some suggest a
Subaru's paint looks better after 200,000 miles.
As for cost of ownership - I do all of my own repairs so I have an excellent
handle on what lasts and what does not. GM's will cost you a wheel bearing
every few years. They will cost you an alternator a couple of times over a
200,000 mile lifetime. They will cost you a fuel tank and a sender unit
(this one is a sore spot to me) once within their lifetime. My expectation
for a car is 250,000 miles. I expect the engine to hold up and perform in
such a way as to feel almost new at that point in its life. I expect the
interior trim to remain intact and only show some signs of use wear at that
point. I expect suspensions to only suffer an occasional ball joint
replacement, shock replacement or tie rod end at that point in it's life. I
expect the transmission to hold up without a flaw and still shift positively
at that point. Every Buick I've ever owned has met these expectations.
I do believe you are mistaken above though, with respect to GM owners and
high mileage. Agreed that many, if not most owners of new GM's may not keep
their cars to 100,000 miles, but those cars do recirculate in the economy.
Look around again and see all of the 100,000 - 250,000 mile GM's that are on
the road. I'm not saying there are more than other brands, I'm saying that
the cars do run that long and they are there on the road right next to you.
| Quote: |
Don't get me wrong: my family was "all GM, all the time" for MANY years.
But when they were starting to have trouble at 50k and beyond, while
their neighbors with Toyotas, Hondas and such were going two and three
times that long without trouble, they started scratching their heads and
going, "Hmmm..." Today there's not a GM vehicle in the family. There
have been Hondas, Nissans, Toyotas and Subies. Nissan's the only "didn't
go back and probably won't" Japanese make so far. And I seriously doubt
any of the family would ever buy another GM product.
|
There was a time... but I contend that that time is long past.
| Quote: |
But competition's good for the species: without the Japanese influence,
we wouldn't have GM vehicles that can now at least make 100k miles with
relatively little drama. GM's quality HAS improved some over the last
decade or so. Still, as they say, it takes a lifetime to build a
reputation but only minutes to lose it, and GM's screwed the pooch with
too many former owners, so they won't come back.
|
Ahhh - we converge. Agreed.
| Quote: | And IMHO they don't
quite build a car that appeals to the guy who's looking at a Honda or
Toyota, so there's another sale lost. Then we look in the paper to see
rebates of up to several thousand dollars. Constantly. What's that tell
us? I don't know about the rest of you, but to me a "rebate" is an out
and out admission the product was seriously overpriced to start with.
Doesn't matter what it is. With cars, it's even worse IMO, since car
dealers and manufacturers have been suspect for years as it is--how many
other products does one EXPECT to haggle over price on like we do cars?
|
Don't know about your area, but where I live the imports play the same
incentive games. It's a car dealer/manufacturer thing. 0% interest,
rebates, free cases of beer for life...
| Quote: |
So, while for MY purposes I think GM makes garbage, and perhaps many
here share my thoughts, people like Mike keep 'em in business cuz they
serve HIS needs and meet HIS expectations.
|
Or because GM really does make a better car now than what your experiences
in the past have caused you to believe they would make. Like you said -
ruin a name and it's very hard to re-establish it. Is it possible that once
you decided that GM had hit the bottom of the barrel in quality (and they
did), that you never really saw the quality that is there today? I've owned
Toyota, Subaru, Mazda and some others over the years. Most all were good
cars in their own way. Some had some real design issues - not unlike the
claims against GM products. The only point that tends to aggrivate me is
when GM takes a hit from folks who sing the praises of Toyota or Honda or
whatever, and they so conveniently overlook the cost of ownership in those
cars. Many of the repair items I spoke of above reoccur within these brands
just as frequently as they do within the GM family. Cost of repair is
certainly no less for these brands, often more due to rates at the
dealerships.
| Quote: | Good for them! We just have
to realize Mike speaks for himself, not the vast owner base of GM
products, and remember NO car is perfect. So his comments ARE very
qualified!
|
Well, I think Mike does probably speak for the vast majority of GM owners to
some degree. Most GM owners are not first time GM buyers. They must like
what they purchase or they would go somewhere else.
Today I own both import and GM. Unless they stop selling the style of car I
want, I will probably continue to own GM. There are a lot of voices out
there who decry GM and have never owned more than one car, yet they shout
from the rooftops as if they were expert. Well - such is life, but it
really pays to measure specifics when comparing vehicles and not rely
totally on the subjective.
--
-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net
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Mike M
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:39 pm Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
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On Sun 27 Nov 2005 05:23:21p, doug responds to Mike Hunter's
<< I don't do home work for my own grand children what
make you think I will do yours.>>
| Quote: | Just as I thought - you don't have any. You're a fraud.
|
His family would be the first to tell you so.
--
Mike |
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Alan Bowler
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:19 pm Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
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billccm wrote:
| Quote: |
If you think American cars are unreliable, go try something from
Europe.
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It varies. Some European stuff is atrocious. Others have been
very good.
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Spam Hater
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:28 am Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
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In article <m56dnUDBhdCntxXeRVn-iw@rogers.com>,
"80 Knight" <80_knightREMOVEME@rogers.com> wrote:
| Quote: | But, I'm sorry. I can not stand 'non big 3'
cars. Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Kia. Heck, I don't like many Chrysler's or
Ford's, but I have always liked GM's vehicles. I look at Honda's and they
just make me sick. The style (IMHO) is just terrible. Sure, they can get
30Mpg, but so can my Bonneville, and it has a hell of a lot more power, room
and luxury.
I agree with you on styling of the Hondas and Toyotas, but being an |
engineer for me styling follows function. If the function isn't there
I'm not interested in even a test drive.
The NA car companies go in cycles, unfortunately Chrysler now has
nothing to replace my '95 Concord. Since it runs beautifully I can wait
it out for a while, even though I'm quite capable financially of buying
anytime.
I don't even like the styling of the Chrysler 300 and from two weeks
driving a rental I know I don't like driving it.
However I wouldn't even take a 300 test drive because 25 years of FWD
have convinced me that's what I want to stick with.
| Quote: | You know something, I honestly don't think anyone can understand what it is
like to live in this part of Ontario without growing up here. The Oshawa GM
plant is a huge part of this place. It gives a lot of people jobs, and does
a lot for the town, and the surrounding ones. Just the mere thought of what
is going on actually happening sickens me, because I know the impact it will
have on my family, and countless others. Some of you seem to think that
working 40 hours a week doing the work these people do for $25 an hour is
the easiest thing in the world. Well, go ahead and give it a try. Do it for
one week, and then tell me what you think of it.
I'm in agreement with you here as well, but face the facts that GM is |
putting the company ahead of the workers. GM is closing NA plants while
importing more and more GM branded foreign built cars.
FYI I won't buy a foreign built car branded by a the big 3. My reason
is the quickness then can discontinue that importing and leave one
stranded with an orphan vehicle. It's happened before.
If I buy an import it will be from a foreign car company importing their
own product. |
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Spam Hater
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:31 am Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
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In article <7ZYhf.33163$gK4.1039337@news20.bellglobal.com>,
"Jane" <pushlinque@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | There is some "dead wood" in there (as there is anywhere), but they are few
and far between. Most of us work our butts off.
|
I'm sure you do but management have not been designing and building the
cars many people want. I know GM is trying to upgrade their designs now,
but it's coming a bit late. |
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Spam Hater
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:34 am Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
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In article <bSednUYrFosR8RXeUSdV9g@ptd.net>,
"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Like said your are entitled to you own opinion but I stopped buying foreign
cars some time ago because they cost much more than their domestic
competitors cars. I have yet to find any of my current, or previous
domestic cars, to be of poor quality. To the contrary, the have all been
well built quality cars that perform as good or better they any foreign cars
I have owned. I no longer need to put up with the arrogance of foreign car
dealers who seem to think they are doing me a favor buy letting me buy one
of their overpriced cars. More buyers feel as I do since they buy more GM,
Ford and Chrysler vehicles than Toyota or Honda and THAT my friend is a fact
|
Yes the equivalent foreign cars have been much higher priced, that is
why I have stuck to Chrysler's NA built cars since '79.
Now that price difference is disappearing. For example the Chrysler 300
is just as expensive as the equivalent from Toyota.
Just compare the Avalon to the 300. |
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Spam Hater
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:39 am Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
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In article <OVOdncRDuZpPHxXeUSdV9g@ptd.net>,
"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Were, in your dreams? ;)
Six months sales figures individual vehicles
. Ford F-Series 432,969
. Chevrolet Silverado 322,907
. Dodge Ram pickup 223,609
. Toyota Camry 213,625 **** #1 car.
. Honda Accord 192,106 **** #2 car
. Ford Explorer 168,059
. Honda Civic 162,483 **** #3 car.
. Ford Taurus 144,035
. Chevrolet Impala 139,460
. Dodge Caravan 131,367
|
Is that a Toyota car I see as #1 car and Honda as #2! <:) |
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Spam Hater
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:44 am Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
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|
In article <clKdnagXVuUjGRXeUSdV9g@ptd.net>,
"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote:
| Quote: | there
is not valid reason to pay more to buy a foreign vehicle and add to the
trade imbalance.
Most Toyotas and Hondas are not imports. |
Many "foreign" vehicles built in the USA are exported around the world.
See BMW in Greenvile, SC and Mercedes in the next state south.
| Quote: | As to the Korean cars if I were to chose to have my money
leave the country I would buy a Korean car before a Japanese car because of
the pricing.
GM has started selling Korean built cars. Cars from China next. |
I won't be a buyer as I'll try to buy a NAFTA built car, which includes
most Toyota, Honda, Nissan, VW, etc. |
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Spam Hater
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:54 am Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
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|
In article <h4CcndRFYoKfJhXeUSdV9g@ptd.net>,
"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote:
| Quote: | That's strange. I buy a new vehicle every year and find the opposite to be
true
mike
"Hal Whelply" <whelply@cox.net> wrote in message
news:F51if.9921$dv.760@fed1read02...
"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:bSednUYrFosR8RXeUSdV9g@ptd.net...
... I no longer need to put up with the arrogance of foreign car dealers
who seem to think they are doing me a favor buy letting me buy one of
their overpriced cars...
The dealer experience is one of the main reasons I stick with foreign
brands (though my latest acquisition, a 2006 Subaru Legacy, was built by
Hoosiers in Lafayette, IN). US dealers treat customers like cattle with
checkbooks. I've consistently received more courteous, customer-oriented
service from foreign brand dealers who seem to realize customers are their
"bread and buttter."
|
Of course the dealer experience is related to the dealerships sales
attitude.
Here one BIG company owner owns several car dealerships. He started with
GM Chev and is now into "foreign" makes.
From my horrible experiences of a few visits to his Chev dealerships I
will not enter a dealership he owns. These dealerships won't even stock
the deal car packages GM occasionally advertises. The last time I went
there they immediately tried to push me into a more upscale and
expensive car than I wanted. I left and eventually bought Chrysler, then
reported my experience to GM. However I'm sure this very powerful dealer
chain is still practicing the same customer imitation practices.
I've dealt with a few of our Chrysler dealerships over the years, only
one which is now out of business has not been enjoyable. |
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Spam Hater
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:57 am Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
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|
In article <Xns971A91F7E5F47rdpleitduina@207.115.63.158>,
The Michael <MikeL@ibehere.not> wrote:
| Quote: | That they saved some money by not repairing their faulty designs of the
past (and future?) may, with many other factors, very well help lead to
their future bankruptcy. But in any case, you can be sure that the CEO
and his future family will have many good holiday seasons to come :o
I am sure statistics will show that there are many millions of customers
that have not bought a Ford for several decades and will continue not to
buy. I any event, I remain a deeply disloyal customer of this particular
corporation.
|
Ford is actually coming into my look at list, with their interesting new
variety of cars which are the result of their Volvo and Mazda
relationships.
Don't count Ford out, they are trying very hard to update their designs. |
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Spam Hater
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:09 am Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
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|
In article <1133131735.983277.288230@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"billccm" <billccm@aol.com> wrote:
| Quote: | And to further paraphrase, I recall Lee Iacocca saying in one of his
newspaper columns:
If you think American cars are unreliable, go try something from
|
Yes the VW engine in our first two Horizons weren't so good,Chrysler
stood behind the valve seal problems.
The Chrysler 2.2 & 2.5 L 4s we had later were very good.
However the Chrysler 4 spd manual transmission that they brought out
with their 4 cyl were a horror story. Their lack of maintenance people
who understood a 4 spd transmission added to my problems. I found I
couldn't even discuss my problems with the maintenance supervisors, they
didn't understand.
Fortunately they stood behind it and after many fixes by the one
mechanic they had who understood the transmission, they completely
replaced the transmission innards two years later. If I wasn't very
patient I'd have traded it right away for a "foreign" car. |
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Mike Hunter
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:11 am Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
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I see why your are confused by advertising and semantics. Yes, Toyota sells
more individual brand cars, but over half the vehicles sold in the US are
light trucks and SUVs. GM and Ford sell more trucks than Toyota and Honda
sell cars AND trucks combined. In fact GM and Ford sell more light TRUCKS
ALONE than Toyota and Honda sell cars AND trucks combined . GM sells more
trucks and CARS than any other brand except Ford. While both GM and Ford
sell more trucks and CARS than Toyota or Honda, Toyota and Honda sell more
cars under ONE label than GM or Ford. The best selling vehicle of one brand
in the US is the Ford F Series, but GM actually sells more trucks with its
several brands. If one went by advertising one might think Toyota offers
the most vehicles with the best fuel economy. The fact is GM sells over 19
vehicles that get thirty MPG or better, Toyota only offers nine and Honda
even less GM even has V6 equipped vehicles
that can match some of the 4cy vehicles of some import brands. ;)
mike
"Spam Hater" <iHate@spam.net> wrote in message
news:iHate-CEC0D4.10394128112005@news.telus.net...
| Quote: | In article <OVOdncRDuZpPHxXeUSdV9g@ptd.net>,
"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote:
Were, in your dreams? ;)
Six months sales figures individual vehicles
. Ford F-Series 432,969
. Chevrolet Silverado 322,907
. Dodge Ram pickup 223,609
. Toyota Camry 213,625 **** #1 car.
. Honda Accord 192,106 **** #2 car
. Ford Explorer 168,059
. Honda Civic 162,483 **** #3 car.
. Ford Taurus 144,035
. Chevrolet Impala 139,460
. Dodge Caravan 131,367
Is that a Toyota car I see as #1 car and Honda as #2! <:) |
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Mike Hunter
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:13 am Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
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Not when you get the drive home price or add in the Hemi ;)
mike hunt
"Spam Hater" <iHate@spam.net> wrote in message
news:iHate-BE855C.10340428112005@news.telus.net...
| Quote: | In article <bSednUYrFosR8RXeUSdV9g@ptd.net>,
"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote:
Like said your are entitled to you own opinion but I stopped buying
foreign
cars some time ago because they cost much more than their domestic
competitors cars. I have yet to find any of my current, or previous
domestic cars, to be of poor quality. To the contrary, the have all been
well built quality cars that perform as good or better they any foreign
cars
I have owned. I no longer need to put up with the arrogance of foreign
car
dealers who seem to think they are doing me a favor buy letting me buy
one
of their overpriced cars. More buyers feel as I do since they buy more
GM,
Ford and Chrysler vehicles than Toyota or Honda and THAT my friend is a
fact
Yes the equivalent foreign cars have been much higher priced, that is
why I have stuck to Chrysler's NA built cars since '79.
Now that price difference is disappearing. For example the Chrysler 300
is just as expensive as the equivalent from Toyota.
Just compare the Avalon to the 300. |
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Spam Hater
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:16 am Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
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|
In article <a7nko11t300up9lgdqhnlon8pcjs7f4nh3@4ax.com>,
nothermark <trash@gnomex.cotse.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Folks like you seem to forget that the high standard of living we
had was because of the low end workers getting it so everyone else
did. Now the mantra is that they don't deserve it. Soon no one will
deserve it as no one left working will be worthy of benefits.
|
Sure they'll be working, in Toyota, Honda, etc. plants; while GM is busy
making corporate profits importing Korean, Chinese, etc. cars.
Can't you see it? GM is the traitor to employment here by not upgrading
their vehicles. GM is selling on price, not function and quality.
While we speak Toyota is building a second large plant in Ontario and
will be shipping the vehicles built there around the world. The first
vehicle they plan to build in this new plant has previously only been
built in Japan. Of course Toyota will be sourcing parts in NAFTA where
possible. |
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Mike Hunter
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:26 am Post subject:
Re: GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants |
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I forget to point out I also own five cars that I have owned since new. A
41, 64, 71, 72, and an 83. All are in pristine condition, with anywhere
from 100K to 300K on the clock. Most of the cars I have owned over the
years were sold to relatives and friends who ran them for many years. As I
said before I haven't had any vehicle, foreign or domestic that proved to be
problematic, in many years. Every manufacture is building good dependable
vehicles today that are capable of being run to 200K or more if given the
proper preventive maintance. The only real difference among them is style
and price, period
mike
"MN" <MN@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:Vssif.24934$q%.14471@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
| Quote: | "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:gEednQJNR45coBfeUSdV9g@ptd.net...
Because I run two or three cars, A luxury car, a sporty convertible and
one for my wife. besides I want to, and I can ;)
I think you have completely ruined your credibility to
argue for domestic car quality, at least for the longer-term
aspect of quality.
As you claimed to buy a new vehicle every year,
and own three cars, that means that on average you
keep your car for only 3 years! Assuming average
driving milage, you just sell your vehicles whithin
GM/FORD/Chrysler typical warranty period, or shortly
after it expires.
And this within warranty period experience of yours
is supossed to be the basis of your argument that
domestic manufacturers quality is equal to imports?
I think with these experiences you're just unqualified to
argue this topic, and definetely not to Subaru owners
(and other import owners) who frequently tend
to keep their cars for many many years, and view
quality in both the short-term perspective and long-term
perspective (100k + miles).
For you quality does not matter after only 3 years of
ownership!
MN
"Rick Courtright" <rcourtright@iname.com> wrote in message
news:4389DB1A.CF387A47@iname.com...
Mike Hunter wrote:
That's strange. I buy a new vehicle every year
Why?
Rick
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