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[Nomen Nescio]

[Guest]

In alt.autos.ford Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> wrote:

[Grayfox]

dold@XReXXHybri.usenet.us.com wrote:
Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> wrote:

[NJ Vike]

Here's an interesting article from Car & Driver on the subject:


You may want to read this.

Hybrid issues, and a rising star at Indy.
BY BROCK YATES
September 2005


I'm not exactly a betting man, but I'll give you 100 to 1 odds that if
you're reading this nonsense you are not a hybrid-car owner. That's probably
a good wager, considering that the new miracle vehicles are stuck at about a
one-half-percent market share of the roughly 17 million annual new car and
light-truck domestic sales and that you are vastly more likely to tear up
the asphalt in a gas-swilling, earth-choking, mega-speed road rocket like
the rest of us motorized Neanderthals.

Of course, if we pay attention to the Cassandra-like fulminations of the
liberal media, we might be led to believe that hybrid vehicles are our only
hope to save us all from ozone asphyxiation and indentured slavery to the
Arab oil barons. To ignore their PC incantations and to continue our binge
buying of conventional internal-combustion engines will, according to these
all-knowing scribes and electronic chatterers, doom civilization to a dark
age embroiled in a heat-soaked Sahara.

Yeah, maybe. Then again, maybe not. Yes, we understand the feds are giving a
one-time $2000 tax credit to hybrid owners, and 16 states are offering
come-on tax breaks ($1500 in Oregon, $4173 in Colorado), inspection
exemptions, and single-driver use of HOV lanes as incentives.

Moreover, the hybrids being sold by Toyota, Lexus, Honda, Ford, and, soon,
Chevrolet are all reasonably priced. Example: The hot-selling Toyota
Prius-with a three-month waiting list in most markets-can be purchased for
under $22,000 loaded (although most experts estimate that Toyota is taking a
$2000 hit on each sale). The Pious-oops-Prius costs about $5000 more to
manufacture than a conventional Corolla and retails for about three-grand
extra.

Now let's jump ugly about the whole situation and talk a little reality. The
guys at Edmunds.com, who run hard numbers about the car business as well as
anyone, estimate that a Prius owner would have to drive at least 66,500
miles annually for five straight years, or gasoline would have to soar to 10
bucks a gallon, to equal the cost of operating a cheaper, conventional
Corolla.

Then we have the battery pack, that heavy lump of nickel-metal hydride juice
boxes that presumably improve fuel efficiency (but not that much, according
to our road tests). Although the warranties are for eight years or 100,000
miles, battery replacement will cost $5300 for the Toyota and Lexus hybrids,
and the Ford Escape replacements run a whopping $7200.

Moreover, the industry types aren't talking about total battery life. Will
they actually last 100,000 miles? How will this affect resale value? Will
the systems stay at full efficiency, or will they slowly drain power as they
age or operate under heavy use? These are questions that remain to be
answered, understanding that storage batteries, be they dry cells in your
flashlight or exotic Ni-MHs, all have finite lives and store less power with
age.

And now comes word that the computer brain inside the gas-electric grids in
some Priuses is tending to go nuts. This causes instant blackout stalling at
either 35 mph or 65 mph-the latter possibly in the fast lane of an
interstate where 50-ton semis running 90 mph can crush compacts like beer
cans.

This brings up an undiscussed issue: At some point, all these hybrid
batteries will die and have to be disposed of somewhere, somehow. These are
hardly biodegradable items like spoiled vegetables. They are in fact
self-contained toxic waste dumps. How and where millions of these poisonous
boxes will be deposited in the new hybrid nirvana has yet to be considered,
much less resolved.

And speaking of the environmental component (the glamour issue centered on
the brave new world of hybrids), a number of EMT and fire crews have
announced that they will refuse to rescue victims trapped in such vehicles,
openly fearing electrocution or fatal acid burns.

As with the now-defunct electric-car miracle, where it was quickly realized
that the national power grid could not energize millions of vehicles without
massive expansion of horrors-nuclear generation-the dark side of the hybrid
miracle is now beginning to surface.


Says a dealer friend whose immense franchise network includes several brands
offering hybrids: "There is no advantage to owning a hybrid in terms of fuel
mileage when the extra cost of the vehicle is added in. Period. Do the math.
This is a feel-good purchase. Hybrids are a statement about the environment,
and they simply do not square with economic reality.

"The truth is, although the Prius is selling like mad, hybrid Honda Accords
and Civics are backed up on dealer lots. Why? Because they look like
conventional Hondas, whereas the Prius has unique styling. It has an iconic
status among the Greenies. Like it or not, that's real life."

Until hybrids become economically feasible in terms of cost, reliability,
and valid fuel savings and make real sense regarding performance and
disposability, we're going to be driving conventional
internal-combustion-powered vehicles-either gas or diesel -until rogue
asteroids clean us all out.

[Guest]

In alt.autos.ford Mike Hunter <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote:

[Daniel Armstrong]

I personally do not own a prius yet but I think sometimes you have to
balance out all of the bad things about the prius with some of the good. A
few item I can think of are: no accessory drive belt to replace, no starter
or alternator to replace (starting is handled by motor/generator1 and 12v
battery charging is handled by a 100amp dc-dc converter with no moving parts
that gets its power from the traction battery), long brake pad life thanks
to the regenerative braking (some owners have reported better than 50% pad
material remaining at 100,000 miles). The way I see it the whole point of
owning the prius is not about the fuel economy, it is because they are fun
to drive and are 90% cleaner than a SULEV vehicle such as my friend's ford
windstar minivan (which has the infamous growling ford power steering pump
with less than 80,000 miles on the clock). Also the NiMh traction batteries
will not be filling up landfills they are being recycled presumably into new
traction batteries and/or being made into consumer AAA, AA, etc size cells
for your home use. Speaking of consumer rechargeables the mass-production of
the traction batteries has desirable side affects. Less than a year ago the
highest capacity AA size NiMh I could find were 2300mAh and those were from
1 brand with all of the others being lower capacity, last week I picked up
an 8 pack of 2500mAh ones and there were about 4 brands to choose from at
that capacity.

[Backyard Mechanic]

HEh... I've been hearing the 'news' of wonderful new automotive tech
since I was a kid and I'm now in my sixties....like the experimental
Chrysler asphalt-melter turbine car of the fifties, and the Wonderful
Wankel (Mazda Rotary for you young'uns), all the glam tech is shown to
have a "man behind the curtain" that you have to ignore to feel good.

Repeat after me!!!
There is STILL nothing more efficient as motive power than producing an
explosion inside a closed box with one movable side connected to an axle!

I have YET to see that ethanol is as economical to produce as gasoline...
though that is the hype we see in ads and hear on the floors of
legislatures! Ethanol seems to be the 21st century 'perpetual motion'
fuel, and, as such, will be proven a boondoggle and nothing more.

I am STILL waiting on the Ceramic block engine I read about in the late
seventies.

I am STARTING to hear whispers that, environmentally, the Fuel cell "aint
all that green".

I'm THINKING that NiMH batteries ARE NOT going to end up in toxic waste
dumps but the effluent of battery reprocessing plants might.

All the while the cost of Natural Gas is inflated by power plant
consumption when modern coal technology is right around the corner...
snuffed by environmental concerns over what to do with the residual
'slag' after the gases are cooked out. and of course the inevitable CO2
concerns.

The TRUE best source of cheap power of course is unthinkable, never mind
that fluidized bed/pelletized fuel reactors are both safer and relatively
environmental-friendly.
- note you can go buy a natural gas powered home generator at Home Depot
as I write this.

So we wait on the next round of 'Cold Fusion' hoaxes...WHAT TO DO WITH
ALL THAT SPENT DEUTERIUM!.

But what's amazing to me, as gas prices drop below $2 at the pump here,
is all the EFFECTS of the hysteria on fuel prices, themselves... almost
as if it were a commodity investor conspiracy.....

Hmmmmm!

Meanwhile, if people WANT to buy a Hybrid to make themselves feel good,
more power to 'em. Sure cant hurt!
- - - - - -- - - - -

"NJ Vike" <ErieLackawanna@Scranton.com> wrote:

[Central Committee of The]

"Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message
news:7d4a6756fea12170056775f367f39b60@dizum.com...

I will rather drive my Toyota than some General Motors
or Chrysler made piece of UAW made CRAP any day
of the week bunkie.

PFHBBLLTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT !!!!!!!!!!
^ ^ ^ ^
(that's how you write the fart noise for the uneducated among us)

[Richard]

" I am STARTING to hear whispers that, environmentally, the Fuel cell "aint
all that green".

The basic breakthrough in chemistry in the area of catalysts is still way in
the future for fuel cells. Current fuel cell technology is only possible
because of government support and military purchase programs that do not
factor in cost effectiveness or long term reliability. People I work with in
this field tell me it could be another 10 years before the technology is
mature enough for it to stand on its own.

Richard.

[Mike Hunter]

The reason the Pruis is selling better than other Hybrids, like the Civic
and the Escape, is buyer don't think to compare it to Toyotas similar size
car, the Corolla. Buyers looking at the other hybrids have the opportunity
to compare it to the convention powered models. When they do it quickly
become apparent that the premium price of driving home the hybrid model
will buy nearly ALL of the fuel to power the conventional model for several
years. When one factors in the enviable cost of battery replacement, at
some point down the road, purchasing the conventional powered model over the
hybrid becomes a no brainer. I think that says a lot about Toyota buyers

mike hunt



"Backyard Mechanic" >> "The truth is, although the Prius is selling like
mad, hybrid Honda

[Daniel J. Stern]

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005, Richard wrote:

[Daniel J. Stern]

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005, Backyard Mechanic wrote:

[Daniel J. Stern]

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005, NJ Vike quoted from Car & Driver:

[Laura Bush murdered her b]

The whole idea of hybrids is stupid. Just make cars smaller and leave
out all the useless crap. Detroit could easily build a 2500 pound
family car that gives 40 mpg and costs $8,000 brand new and gives
250,000 trouble-free miles on nothing but routine maintenance.

[Backyard Mechanic]

"Daniel J. Stern" <dastern@127.0.0.1> wrote: