| Author |
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Elle
Guest
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 Posted:
Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:03 pm Post subject:
Re: Hybrids - Toyota vs Honda |
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"st-bum" <kennykabuki@yahoo.com> wrote
| Quote: | What's the relationship between torque and HP? I never understood
that.
And I had a year of physics at an engineering shchool.
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Re-read the chapters of the text on work, power, and torque.
| Quote: | I know power is work
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No. Power is work delivered per unit time.
| Quote: | and torque is twisting force
(F * r), but somehow
I would think the two would be very similar.
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Google for explanations that will probably be better than any given off the
top of one's head here or at any personal web site.
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhorsepower.html isn't bad.
--
Honda home studies: http://home.earthlink.net/~honda.lioness
--
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notbob
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:04 pm Post subject:
Re: Wind power - was Re: Hybrids - Toyota vs Honda |
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On 2005-11-13, Michael Pardee <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
| Quote: | neighbors on the grids so far) could make that worse. But for producing
hydrogen they could theoretically be made to pay off.
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bingo! |
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Michael Pardee
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Nov 13, 2005 11:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Wind power - was Re: Hybrids - Toyota vs Honda |
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"notbob" <notbob@nothome.com> wrote in message
news:3Pidnd0OqJeE-ereRVn-uA@comcast.com...
| Quote: | On 2005-11-13, Michael Pardee <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
neighbors on the grids so far) could make that worse. But for producing
hydrogen they could theoretically be made to pay off.
bingo!
|
Hey, they gotta be good for something! :-) I have a brother who used to
work for American Wind Power in California, but I don't think they are in
business any more.
Seriously, uses that don't care much about the unpredictable nature of wind
power are a lot more attractive than going live on the public grids. Even
pumping water for gravity storage makes sense where the water and land are
suitable. Land that has the required characteristics for real-time wind
power is amazingly scarce and can become expensive if demand increases. Land
that has a usable amount of wind enough of the time for production
enterprises is far more common.
Whether hydrogen generation is going to have enough demand for wind or solar
powered cracking to be practical remains to be seen, but I don't rule it
out.
Mike
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st-bum
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:06 am Post subject:
Re: Hybrids - Toyota vs Honda |
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Thanks for that straightdope line. I knew power was work/time, just
misspoke.
That's the best explanation I've heard. |
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Andrew Stephenson
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:08 am Post subject:
Re: Hybrids - Toyota vs Honda |
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In article <1131860509.264966.282990@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
kennykabuki@yahoo.com "st-bum" writes:
| Quote: | What's the relationship between torque and HP? I never
understood that. [...]
|
At the risk of repeating what others and have said and what you
know already...
Torque is, basically, a rotational (ie, twisting) force.
HP (horsepower) is a rate of doing work, so can also be expressed
in units such as watts (the modern preference, 1 HP == 746 watts)
and BTU (if one must).
An easy way to remember the equivalence between Force, Distance
(over which the Force is used) and Work (another way of saying
Energy) is to recall that
Work = Force * Distance
So Power, the Rate Of Doing Work, is
Work / Time
Therefore the Work done by Torque is, in effect, the Force acting
at a certain Leverage distance, tracing a circular path around a
point, over a certain Time.
One final relationship:
Torque = Force * Leverage
where Leverage is the distance between the line-of-action of the
Force and the pivot point, about which the Torque is calculated.
A 15 kilo Force pushing on a lever 2 metres long exerts a Torque
at the pivot point of 15*2 kilo-force-metres (not to be confused
with kilometres). Most engineers use Newtons, not kilos-force:
Newton = Kilo * 9.81 (approx)
So that Torque would actually be (about) 294.3 Newton-metres.
Back to the original question...
Work done in 1 revolution
= 2 * pi * Leverage * Force
= 2 * pi * Torque
So rate of doing work (ie, Power)
= 2 * pi * Torque / Time_for_1_rev
= 2 * pi * Torque * Revs_per_second
= watts
Use Newton-metres here and it is a doddle to compute Power. If
you absolutely must know the HP, divide Watts by 746.
(FWIW, AFAIK: 1 Pound-force-foot == 1.355818 Newton-metres. And
for pi you can get by with 3.14159, though it goes on to many <g>
more significant digits than that.)
Grief, I hope I got that lot right. <g> If anyone knows better,
do let me know soon.
--
Andrew Stephenson |
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dh
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 14, 2005 3:14 am Post subject:
Re: Hybrids - Toyota vs Honda |
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"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:iAidnbfkG7CdC-veUSdV9g@ptd.net...
| Quote: | Camry may still be the number one selling car but it was never the number
one vehicle sold in the US. The F150 is the number one seller and has
been
for nearly thirty years, at just about twice as many sold as the Camry.
Camry is aparently not as popular as it was last year either. Cold it be
becse they are underpowered? The Camry was the ONLY vehicle in the top
five
to lose sales in 2005, it dropped around 20,000 sales, falling from third
place to fourth below the Dodge Ram. The others all gained sales,
including
the Honda Accord, which is actully made in the US, not merely assembed of
imported parts like the Camry
VEHICLE Sales Y-T-D 2005 Last Yr. '04 Rank Chg.
1 Ford F-Series pickup 760,929 740,817 1 +2.7
2 Chevrolet Silverado pickup 616,139 575,886 2 +7.0
3 Dodge Ram pickup 409,252 362,122 6 +13.0
4 Toyota Camry 383,478 403,136 3 -4.9
5 Honda Accord 371,307 367,210 5 +1.1
|
Having exactly what to do with your repeated unsupported allegation that
Toyotas are underpowered?
Still, with every pickup, you get highway mileage in the teens! Yippee!
And, in spite of its voracious appetite for gas, Edmunds had this to say
about the F150:
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/ford/f150/100447759/researchlanding.html
"Feels sluggish even with larger V8."
Gee, thirsty AND slow. Who would have expected THAT from a Ford?
Get some facts and a clue and get back to us.
| Quote: |
"dh" <dh@stargate.com> wrote in message
The Camry is one of the most popular cars on the market. Toyota
actually
makes money selling them. Most people think the 4 is at least
adequately
powered or they wouldn't buy them and Toyota wouldn't make money selling
them. Friends who drive them think they move out just fine (and none of
these owns one of the latest with VVTi and a better power-to-weight
ratio
than ever before).
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Mike Hunter
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:38 am Post subject:
Re: Hybrids - Toyota vs Honda |
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Considering the same vehicle weight and gearing, the vehicle with the higher
HP will go faster. Considering the same vehicle weight and HP the vehicle
that develops its torque at lower RPMs will be more powerful. Torque is
what enables a vehicle to get going from a stop more quickly and keeps it
going under load.
mike hunt
"st-bum" <kennykabuki@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1131908790.615823.230240@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Thanks for that straightdope line. I knew power was work/time, just
misspoke.
That's the best explanation I've heard.
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st-bum
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:12 am Post subject:
Re: Hybrids - Toyota vs Honda |
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| Thank you very much for your informative reply. |
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flobert
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: Hybrids - Toyota vs Honda |
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On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 03:42:05 GMT, ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk (Andrew
Stephenson) wrote:
| Quote: | In article <he4cn15ikkbsvihp0rlbom29lkc3ausdlc@4ax.com
blPYTHONbergman@earthlink.invalid "Bruce L. Bergman" writes:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 02:33:08 GMT, ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk (Andrew
Stephenson) wrote:
One parallel is not exact but close: power lines commonly snag
birds as they fly past. That's why you will see silvery balls
strung on the lines, especially at valley mouths where flyways
lead up into (and down from) hill country. Here in the UK the
power company have cut local swan deaths by this precaution.
Sorry, but no. That's not the primary reason why the visibility
balls are placed, or they would be installed on all power lines.
[discussion of the US situation]
Thanks for the insights on the USian setup. However, our local
power company here in the eastern UK did install such power line
decorations to save swans/geese/etc from accidents, when flying
around favoured grazing/landing sites. Maybe they saved the odd
plane too -- dunno.
|
Sorry, they're for light aircraft in the UK too.
Documents and reports should be available at your local HSE office, go
n and ask nicely. They should be able to find you the mountains of
reports on it.
| Quote: |
Back to the windmills: perhaps I ought to enquire as to rates of
bird strike locally, now that more and more of the whirly things
are being installed. Mind, some are offshore, by a mile or two,
and I am guessing we can spare the odd seagull (breeding to pest
numbers). |
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John Horner
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: Hybrids - Toyota vs Honda |
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st-bum wrote:
| Quote: | What's the relationship between torque and HP? I never understood
that.
And I had a year of physics at an engineering shchool.
I know power is work and torque is twisting force (F * r), but somehow
I would think the two would be very similar.
|
Torque X rotational speed = Power. To get the units right in various
systems, a conversion factor is used.
A very good discussion is available on the web at:
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhorsepower.html
Power is the ability to do work. Work is needed to move a mass from one
place to another, to increase elevation, to increase velocity
(acceleration) and to overcome frictional losses like air resistance,
tire rolling resitance, etc.
Thus, for example, 200 ft. lbs. of torque at 4,000 RPM can accomplish
twice as much work as can 200 ft. lbs. of torque at 2,000 RPM. Put
another way, 400 ft. lbs. at 1,000 RPM can do the same work as does 200
ft. lbs at 2,000 RPM. For the units used in the US:
Power (HP) = [Engine Speed (RPM) x Engine Torque (ft.lbs.)] / 5252
It is really that simple.
John |
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John Horner
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: Hybrids - Toyota vs Honda |
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| Quote: | "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote in message
VEHICLE Sales Y-T-D 2005 Last Yr. '04 Rank Chg.
1 Ford F-Series pickup 760,929 740,817 1 +2.7
2 Chevrolet Silverado pickup 616,139 575,886 2 +7.0
3 Dodge Ram pickup 409,252 362,122 6 +13.0
4 Toyota Camry 383,478 403,136 3 -4.9
5 Honda Accord 371,307 367,210 5 +1.1
|
2006 is certain to take away a lot of the thunder from Mr. Hunter's
argument. Large truck and SUV sales are dropping like a rock while
sedan and small crossover SUV sales are increasing.
Somewhere in the next couple of years Toyota is going to pass GM in
worldwide sales volume and will never look back. If the Delphi
bankructcy results in supply distruptions to GM, which is highly likely,
then 2006 will be the year of the changing of leadership for sure.
Years ago GM unseated Ford and has never looked back. GM did it with a
better product range and agressive salesmanship. Unfortunately Detroit
has had it's eye off the ball for too many years now.
John |
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John Horner
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: Wind power - was Re: Hybrids - Toyota vs Honda |
|
|
Michael Pardee wrote:
| Quote: | But for producing
hydrogen they could theoretically be made to pay off.
Mike
|
An excellent point you make sir! Wind power to add to energy storage,
be that storage hydrogen or some form of battery, makes lots of sense.
It is much harder to make wind generators put out the constant voltage,
constant phase output the grid wants to see.
John |
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John Horner
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:15 am Post subject:
Re: Wind power - was Re: Hybrids - Toyota vs Honda |
|
|
Michael Pardee wrote:
| Quote: | Seriously, uses that don't care much about the unpredictable nature of wind
power are a lot more attractive than going live on the public grids. Even
pumping water for gravity storage makes sense where the water and land are
suitable. Land that has the required characteristics for real-time wind
power is amazingly scarce and can become expensive if demand increases. Land
that has a usable amount of wind enough of the time for production
enterprises is far more common.
|
Indeed. Before electric power and motors became ubiquitous, windmills
were commonly used to pump water out of wells for farms and ranches.
Their unpredictability and relatively high maintenance and repair
requirements compared to electric pumps all but eliminated wind power
from it's historic water pumping roll.
John |
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Mike Hunter
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:54 pm Post subject:
Re: Hybrids - Toyota vs Honda |
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How did you arrive at that conclusion? The ONLY vehicle in the top five to
drop in sales was the Camry, all the others have gone up. Trucks and SUVs
still account for half of all sales combined and there are a lot more car
models than light truck models on the market. Perhaps you meant to say in
my opinion? ;)
mike hunt
"John Horner" <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:jHTdf.4919$%t4.4115@trnddc07...
| Quote: | "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote in message
VEHICLE Sales Y-T-D 2005 Last Yr. '04 Rank Chg.
1 Ford F-Series pickup 760,929 740,817 1 +2.7
2 Chevrolet Silverado pickup 616,139 575,886 2 +7.0
3 Dodge Ram pickup 409,252 362,122 6 +13.0
4 Toyota Camry 383,478 403,136 3 -4.9
5 Honda Accord 371,307 367,210 5 +1.1
2006 is certain to take away a lot of the thunder from Mr. Hunter's
argument. Large truck and SUV sales are dropping like a rock while sedan
and small crossover SUV sales are increasing.
Somewhere in the next couple of years Toyota is going to pass GM in
worldwide sales volume and will never look back. If the Delphi bankructcy
results in supply distruptions to GM, which is highly likely, then 2006
will be the year of the changing of leadership for sure.
Years ago GM unseated Ford and has never looked back. GM did it with a
better product range and agressive salesmanship. Unfortunately Detroit
has had it's eye off the ball for too many years now.
John |
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Bob Palmer
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Hybrids - Toyota vs Honda |
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Part of the reason the 3 pickups (they are not trucks-a dumptruck is a
truck, an 18-wheeler is a truck) made it to the top 3 is because Chrysler,
Ford & GM used the lure of "employee discount" to pad the sales. Honda and
Toyota used their normal discounts for this time of year. GM lost over a
billion in the last quarter. Analysts say both GM and Ford will be out of
business by 2015. The only sales they will get are the typical "must buy
American" sheep.
"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:cbCdnYJjdrncOOXeUSdV9g@ptd.net...
| Quote: | How did you arrive at that conclusion? The ONLY vehicle in the top five
to drop in sales was the Camry, all the others have gone up. Trucks and
SUVs still account for half of all sales combined and there are a lot more
car models than light truck models on the market. Perhaps you meant to
say in my opinion? ;)
mike hunt
"John Horner" <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:jHTdf.4919$%t4.4115@trnddc07...
"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote in message
VEHICLE Sales Y-T-D 2005 Last Yr. '04 Rank Chg.
1 Ford F-Series pickup 760,929 740,817 1 +2.7
2 Chevrolet Silverado pickup 616,139 575,886 2 +7.0
3 Dodge Ram pickup 409,252 362,122 6 +13.0
4 Toyota Camry 383,478 403,136 3 -4.9
5 Honda Accord 371,307 367,210 5 +1.1
2006 is certain to take away a lot of the thunder from Mr. Hunter's
argument. Large truck and SUV sales are dropping like a rock while sedan
and small crossover SUV sales are increasing.
Somewhere in the next couple of years Toyota is going to pass GM in
worldwide sales volume and will never look back. If the Delphi
bankructcy results in supply distruptions to GM, which is highly likely,
then 2006 will be the year of the changing of leadership for sure.
Years ago GM unseated Ford and has never looked back. GM did it with a
better product range and agressive salesmanship. Unfortunately Detroit
has had it's eye off the ball for too many years now.
John
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