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Message |
aarcuda69062
Guest
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 Posted:
Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:34 am Post subject:
Re: Ford - This is driving me nuts |
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In article <rP-dnSuDu7Gpm8HeRVn-rA@comcast.com>,
Tom Adkins <newton5@remove.comcast.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Oh, ok, I see what you're after. A problem in the starter bypass circuit. I
forgot
about that one. Did Dura Spark have that circuit to the starter relay? I
don't really
remember.
|
Yes it did.
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Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:59 pm Post subject:
Re: Ford - This is driving me nuts |
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On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:03:08 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
| Quote: | Tom Adkins wrote:
Mike Romain wrote:
The first thing that comes to my mind is a dirty or loose plug on the
side of the starter relay/solenoid.
Mike, the engine will crank but not start when hot. It's in about the middle of the OP.
True, but heat from the manifolds still affects the solenoid connection
on the fender which gives the symptoms he described. Him saying it
tries to start when he drops the key back to run implies something in
the 'start' circuit for the ignition is bad.
The module or the connection on the module can be suspect easily too,
but if it is only a loose push on plug thing, it is a cheap easy fix.
Mine acted like that when hot, then all the time. That solenoid
connection is now soldered to the connected trigger wire from the key
switch because I didn't have a spare plug when it finally died.
Using the jumper wire to power the coil like I described is an easy
test. If it doesn't start right up, look at the module.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
|
I plan to do the test as you said. I replaced the solenoid yesterday
and cleaned all the contacts. However, I was thinking there could be
a problem with the ignition switch, so your test will tell. Of course
this problem is intermittent, so I have to wait till it starts
screwing up again.
Thanks for the tip
Mark |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:03 pm Post subject:
Re: Ford - This is driving me nuts |
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On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 22:34:42 GMT, aarcuda69062
<nonelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
| Quote: | In article <rP-dnSuDu7Gpm8HeRVn-rA@comcast.com>,
Tom Adkins <newton5@remove.comcast.net> wrote:
Oh, ok, I see what you're after. A problem in the starter bypass circuit. I
forgot
about that one. Did Dura Spark have that circuit to the starter relay? I
don't really
remember.
Yes it did.
|
What circuit are you referring to? I got a wiring diagram from
AutoZone, but I am not sure what you mean.....
From what I see, there is a resistor inline from the RUN position, and
a direct connection in the START position. I dont see any other
circuits.
Mark
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Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:13 pm Post subject:
Re: Ford - This is driving me nuts |
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On 23 Oct 2005 13:35:10 -0700, "Puzzled Ed" <faast_ed@netzero.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | Worn brushes in a starter can have those same exact symptoms. You can
change the brushes, without changing the starter. Polishing the comm
while it's apart will give you added starting power. With a polished
comm, that sucker will crank faster than you have ever heard it crank.
(been there, done that).
You can confirm by tapping on the starter with a wrench or small hammer
while someone is twisting the key.
Hopefully you had already checked for loose connections.
|
Why would the starter brushes make the engine not fire? The starter
is cranking the engine properly, I just am not getting a spark (at
times, since the problem is intermittant).
Yes, I checked connections on the starter, replaced solenoid, battery
terminal cleaned, checked module plug connectors, and ignition coil
terminals. Since I got a spare coil, I intend to substitute that too.
Thanks
Mark |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:22 pm Post subject:
Re: Ford - This is driving me nuts |
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On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:55:16 -0400, Tom Adkins
<newton5@remove.comcast.net> wrote:
| Quote: | maradcliff@UNLISTED.com wrote:
It looks like almost everyone pointed to the module. I am going to go
check the battery voltage and connections first. However, if the
module is bad, do I specifically need one for this year and the 400
engine, or can I use one from another Ford year and/or engine?
I know a guy with about 20 junked Fords in his back 40. There's a
good chance he has something that may work, but just how many
varieties are them?
Thanks
Mark
There are a few flavors of Dura Spark modules, 4 if I remember correctly, it's been
a long time. They were usually identified by the color of the grommet where the wires
enter the box. Match up the connectors and the grommet color and you are good to go.
Failures were common on these modules so used modules are a real coin toss, especially
on parts this old. I remember seeing guys with 3 bad ones screwed to the inner fender,
they would switch the connectors around as they quit working. A quick search of
Autozone shows a Wells brand (yeech) for $19.99. A quality module can likely be had
for ~$30.
|
Hmmmm, alot cheaper that I thought. I had to replace one on an Olds
once and that cost over $80, and was just a little thing that went in
the distributor.
Having a basic understanding of electronics, what is inside them
anyhow? I know they must have some sort of SCR or Triac and a trigger
device (IC). A few capacitors and resistors......
Right?
All they really do is provide a pulse to replace points, and its
picked up from that magnet rotor in the dist. They cant be all that
complicated. Kind of makes me wonder what that box is so big.
Mark |
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aarcuda69062
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:12 pm Post subject:
Re: Ford - This is driving me nuts |
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In article <iofpl15b9h3p8976qg00470rt5nkes8c3i@4ax.com>,
maradcliff@UNLISTED.com wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 22:34:42 GMT, aarcuda69062
nonelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
In article <rP-dnSuDu7Gpm8HeRVn-rA@comcast.com>,
Tom Adkins <newton5@remove.comcast.net> wrote:
Oh, ok, I see what you're after. A problem in the starter bypass
circuit. I
forgot
about that one. Did Dura Spark have that circuit to the starter relay? I
don't really
remember.
Yes it did.
What circuit are you referring to? I got a wiring diagram from
AutoZone, but I am not sure what you mean.....
From what I see, there is a resistor inline from the RUN position, and
a direct connection in the START position. I dont see any other
circuits.
Mark
|
The by-pass circuit runs from the solenoid "I" terminal to coil
positive.
When the solenoid is closed as is the case when the starter is
engaged, battery + is internally jumpered inside the solenoid to
the "I" terminal, this is what feeds the ignition coil during
cranking.
This is the way it is usually done prior to TFI ignition. The
by-pass can also be done via the ignition switch.
Go with what the wiring diagram indicates.
Either way, you should be able to measure cranking battery volts
at the coil positive when cranking the engine.
Another point to check is the ground inside the distributor, of
the three wires running to the distributor, one is the ground for
the ignition box, it is literally an eyelet screwed to the
distributor housing (inside), but it depends on a clean ground
all the way thru the housing AND where the distributor contacts
the engine block, any corrosion between the distributor housing
and the engine block will cause problems also. |
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Mike Romain
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:06 pm Post subject:
Re: Ford - This is driving me nuts |
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maradcliff@UNLISTED.com wrote:
| Quote: |
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:03:08 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca
wrote:
Tom Adkins wrote:
Mike Romain wrote:
The first thing that comes to my mind is a dirty or loose plug on the
side of the starter relay/solenoid.
Mike, the engine will crank but not start when hot. It's in about the middle of the OP.
True, but heat from the manifolds still affects the solenoid connection
on the fender which gives the symptoms he described. Him saying it
tries to start when he drops the key back to run implies something in
the 'start' circuit for the ignition is bad.
The module or the connection on the module can be suspect easily too,
but if it is only a loose push on plug thing, it is a cheap easy fix.
Mine acted like that when hot, then all the time. That solenoid
connection is now soldered to the connected trigger wire from the key
switch because I didn't have a spare plug when it finally died.
Using the jumper wire to power the coil like I described is an easy
test. If it doesn't start right up, look at the module.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
I plan to do the test as you said. I replaced the solenoid yesterday
and cleaned all the contacts. However, I was thinking there could be
a problem with the ignition switch, so your test will tell. Of course
this problem is intermittent, so I have to wait till it starts
screwing up again.
Thanks for the tip
Mark
|
That is the bypass circuit I am talking about. The power from the
solenoid goes to the coil and the ignition module when the key is in
'start'.
If the solenoid is firing, the ignition switch has no issues. The power
to start the coil comes from the solenoid.
So basically if the jumper works you likely have a bad connection either
at the solenoid or ignition module or maybe a ratty crimp connector
where the solenoid wire meets the resistor wire about a foot or so from
the distributor inside the harness.
On my module itself, the bypass is the white wire with the 'run' power
being the red wire on the two pronged plug and the solenoid tag is a
blue wire. Don't know how much they varied the colors so that might be
useless to you.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's |
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Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:19 pm Post subject:
Re: Ford - This is driving me nuts |
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On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:06:02 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
| Quote: | maradcliff@UNLISTED.com wrote:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:03:08 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca
wrote:
Tom Adkins wrote:
Mike Romain wrote:
The first thing that comes to my mind is a dirty or loose plug on the
side of the starter relay/solenoid.
Mike, the engine will crank but not start when hot. It's in about the middle of the OP.
True, but heat from the manifolds still affects the solenoid connection
on the fender which gives the symptoms he described. Him saying it
tries to start when he drops the key back to run implies something in
the 'start' circuit for the ignition is bad.
The module or the connection on the module can be suspect easily too,
but if it is only a loose push on plug thing, it is a cheap easy fix.
Mine acted like that when hot, then all the time. That solenoid
connection is now soldered to the connected trigger wire from the key
switch because I didn't have a spare plug when it finally died.
Using the jumper wire to power the coil like I described is an easy
test. If it doesn't start right up, look at the module.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
I plan to do the test as you said. I replaced the solenoid yesterday
and cleaned all the contacts. However, I was thinking there could be
a problem with the ignition switch, so your test will tell. Of course
this problem is intermittent, so I have to wait till it starts
screwing up again.
Thanks for the tip
Mark
That is the bypass circuit I am talking about. The power from the
solenoid goes to the coil and the ignition module when the key is in
'start'.
If the solenoid is firing, the ignition switch has no issues. The power
to start the coil comes from the solenoid.
So basically if the jumper works you likely have a bad connection either
at the solenoid or ignition module or maybe a ratty crimp connector
where the solenoid wire meets the resistor wire about a foot or so from
the distributor inside the harness.
On my module itself, the bypass is the white wire with the 'run' power
being the red wire on the two pronged plug and the solenoid tag is a
blue wire. Don't know how much they varied the colors so that might be
useless to you.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
|
OK, I gotcha now. Yes, there is a wire on the "I" terminal on the
solenoid, and it has power when I turn the IGN switch on. That's one
of the reasons I changed the solenoid as my initial trial repair.
Just curious. Can I safely put a small 12V light bulb across the two
coil terminals? Because this problem is intemittant, I thought I
could do that and then I can easily know if there is power getting
there. I am assuming the light would flash from the module and this
would indicate if everything was working or not. I know I can go from
the coil POS to an engine ground safely, but I hesitate to go to the
coil NEG, since it could possibly harm the module. Anyone know?
Thanks again
Mark |
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Mike Romain
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:27 am Post subject:
Re: Ford - This is driving me nuts |
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maradcliff@UNLISTED.com wrote:
| Quote: |
On Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:06:02 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca
wrote:
maradcliff@UNLISTED.com wrote:
On Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:03:08 -0400, Mike Romain <romainm@sympatico.ca
wrote:
Tom Adkins wrote:
Mike Romain wrote:
The first thing that comes to my mind is a dirty or loose plug on the
side of the starter relay/solenoid.
Mike, the engine will crank but not start when hot. It's in about the middle of the OP.
True, but heat from the manifolds still affects the solenoid connection
on the fender which gives the symptoms he described. Him saying it
tries to start when he drops the key back to run implies something in
the 'start' circuit for the ignition is bad.
The module or the connection on the module can be suspect easily too,
but if it is only a loose push on plug thing, it is a cheap easy fix.
Mine acted like that when hot, then all the time. That solenoid
connection is now soldered to the connected trigger wire from the key
switch because I didn't have a spare plug when it finally died.
Using the jumper wire to power the coil like I described is an easy
test. If it doesn't start right up, look at the module.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
I plan to do the test as you said. I replaced the solenoid yesterday
and cleaned all the contacts. However, I was thinking there could be
a problem with the ignition switch, so your test will tell. Of course
this problem is intermittent, so I have to wait till it starts
screwing up again.
Thanks for the tip
Mark
That is the bypass circuit I am talking about. The power from the
solenoid goes to the coil and the ignition module when the key is in
'start'.
If the solenoid is firing, the ignition switch has no issues. The power
to start the coil comes from the solenoid.
So basically if the jumper works you likely have a bad connection either
at the solenoid or ignition module or maybe a ratty crimp connector
where the solenoid wire meets the resistor wire about a foot or so from
the distributor inside the harness.
On my module itself, the bypass is the white wire with the 'run' power
being the red wire on the two pronged plug and the solenoid tag is a
blue wire. Don't know how much they varied the colors so that might be
useless to you.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
OK, I gotcha now. Yes, there is a wire on the "I" terminal on the
solenoid, and it has power when I turn the IGN switch on. That's one
of the reasons I changed the solenoid as my initial trial repair.
Just curious. Can I safely put a small 12V light bulb across the two
coil terminals? Because this problem is intemittant, I thought I
could do that and then I can easily know if there is power getting
there. I am assuming the light would flash from the module and this
would indicate if everything was working or not. I know I can go from
the coil POS to an engine ground safely, but I hesitate to go to the
coil NEG, since it could possibly harm the module. Anyone know?
Thanks again
Mark
|
I use a multimeter. You can put alligator clips on it's probes so you
can turn the key and see the meter at the same time.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's |
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Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Ford - This is driving me nuts |
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check your coil to distributor plugwire for internal corrosion usually
on coil end. |
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