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[David Starr]

On 11 Oct 2005 09:51:11 -0700, "treeline12345@yahoo.com"
<treeline12345@yahoo.com> wrote:

[quote]I'm Right wrote:
delphi as well as all us auto plants pay about $65 per hour in wages and
benefits to hourly employees.
the hourly and salary folks are not worth anywhere near that amount of
money.

And whose fault is that?

a) MBA's and accountants who dumbed down the production line.

Remember that truly outstanding engineer, Bas Ruttan?, the one who won
the prize for the man-powered flight, across the English Channel was it
or something like that? Decades ago he tried to help them design a car
now known as a hybrid. The engineers just could not handle innovations
of his that are now common on the Japanese cars.
[/quote]
Bert Rutan? The guy that designed & built the rocket powered space plane? He
designs some of the wierdest looking airplanes you've ever seen, and they fly
like a dream. Sure would like to see what he could do designing a complete car.
[quote]
Or was it Demming who showed the Japanese zero defects production? Half
a century ago.
[/quote]
Everyone in the plant I worked in was sent to Deming classes. Upper management
then decided that's not the way we want to do business & kept going as usual.
[quote]
b) the unions did not help. everybody likes to get paid more than they
are worth. but to think and to read and to innovate - are they
encouraged by the unions? look at the teacher's unions. keeping dumb
teachers in place at all costs. or the cop unions keeping corrupt cops
on the job, brutal, nasty cops who are lucky they are not in prison
themselves.
[/quote]
There's no incentive to do a good job. The goof-offs get the same money as the
hard workers. Ride the good horse and ignore the bad ones. When you ride him
into the ground, find another good horse.

[quote]c) it was fat city for a long time. so much wasted money and corruption
in too many places. what's the difference between the union workers in
michigan and the government workers in washington dc and other places?
[/quote]
In DC they wear suits. :-)

[quote]it's ain't over until the fat lady sings and if you listen closely, you
will hear a far off song.
[/quote]
It's not all that far away now.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography

Web Site: www.destarr.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[treeline12345@yahoo.com]

David Starr wrote:
[quote]Remember that truly outstanding engineer, Bas Ruttan?, the one who won
the prize for the man-powered flight, across the English Channel was it
or something like that? Decades ago he tried to help them design a car
now known as a hybrid. The engineers just could not handle innovations
of his that are now common on the Japanese cars.

Bert Rutan? The guy that designed & built the rocket powered space plane? He
designs some of the wierdest looking airplanes you've ever seen, and they fly
like a dream. Sure would like to see what he could do designing a complete car.
[/quote]
I goofed. MacReady was the engineer who made the first man-powered
flight. Rutan is another engineer with the prize for the first private
rocket dual flight.




[quote]
Or was it Demming who showed the Japanese zero defects production? Half
a century ago.

Everyone in the plant I worked in was sent to Deming classes. Upper management
then decided that's not the way we want to do business & kept going as usual.

b) the unions did not help. everybody likes to get paid more than they
are worth. but to think and to read and to innovate - are they
encouraged by the unions? look at the teacher's unions. keeping dumb
teachers in place at all costs. or the cop unions keeping corrupt cops
on the job, brutal, nasty cops who are lucky they are not in prison
themselves.

There's no incentive to do a good job. The goof-offs get the same money as the
hard workers. Ride the good horse and ignore the bad ones. When you ride him
into the ground, find another good horse.

c) it was fat city for a long time. so much wasted money and corruption
in too many places. what's the difference between the union workers in
michigan and the government workers in washington dc and other places?

In DC they wear suits. :-)

it's ain't over until the fat lady sings and if you listen closely, you
will hear a far off song.

It's not all that far away now.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography

Web Site: www.destarr.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -[/quote]

[treeline12345@yahoo.com]

Sarge wrote:
[quote]Someone wrote: "b) the unions did not help. everybody likes to get paid more
than they are worth. but to think and to read and to innovate - are they
encouraged by the unions? look at the teacher's unions. keeping dumb
teachers in place at all costs. or the cop unions keeping corrupt cops on
the job, brutal, nasty cops who are lucky they are not in prison
themselves."

I would agree with some of your comments but not all. First is teachers
union made it hard to get rid of teachers once tenure was put in place.
[/quote]
True.

[quote]I do have to disagree with cop unions. Most were reinstated by civil
service boards that are made up of the corrupt city officials friends.
[/quote]
True but I have seen some cop unions go out of the way for corrupt
cops.

[quote]On your comments a unions did not help is totally untrue. Having worked in
both union and non union locations, I can tell you that I been treated
better in union locations then non union locations. Safety conditions are
better in union shops then non union shops I worked in. Union have lost
more then they gained.
[/quote]
What comments? I agree with you about unions in the past. Presently,
the unions are not as corrupt as management but it's a tough call but
the unions are a little less corrupt. But you're right here. Unions let
people get out of third world conditions where their lives are so much
fodder for the bean counters.

When I last interacted with union organizing to a little degree, I was
surprised. The board of directors was lined with the union leader's
family. Nice cushy $70,000 a year job being a "trustee." Not bad. And
the gritty address for the union was a phony front. They were located
in a suburban setting with locks on all doors. I am not surprised that
Walmart is winning.

[quote]Have you every sat in on negotiations? The first thing on a unions wish
list is not wages but better working conditions and benefits. It is not the
union fault health care is so high. It is all of our fault for not taking
better care of ourselves. It is the fault of lawsuits that don't need to be
filed.
[/quote]
The last union I belonged to was sold out in a sweetheart deal so nope,
I never sat in. This was a local of the infamous Teamster's which was
so corrupt it was put out of business. The head of the union was like a
little mafia character, you're a bright boy, he told me, you ask a lot
of questions. He was annoyed that I pointed out that he forced the
union to take a cut!!! in wages for the pensioners when the federal
government guarantees pensions!!! Needless to say, everything went down
the tubes.

[quote]People formed unions to getter better working conditions then to get better
wages. Delphi is asking workers to go from roughly 28.00 dollars and hour
to 14 dollars and hour, give up their health insurance benefits and
retirement benefits. Delphi wants to cut retiree benefits and only pay a
pension.

They are not the only company wanting to do this. I work for a major
chemical company. They did not ask us to take a pay cut but want us to pay
more for our medical insurance. Presently they pay 80% and we pay 20%.
They want to step it back to 70% company and 30% employee and drop medical
on all future retirees. We rejected this idea because the company right now
is making record profits and they are asking us to pay more. The CEO just
got a 45 % pay raise. His profit sharing bonus is at 25% while ours is only
4% of our base salary plus 4% for all overtime pay.

Unions only ask that profits should benefit the low hourly workers as they
do upper management.

If you that concerned about this countries future then buy from American
companies that still have people working in this country and not from
companies that ship a finish product here. Buy union made products.

Union Proud
Union Made

Member of PACE local 4-750

Sarge
[/quote]
I try but it's difficult. Management is usually ruthless MBA's. And the
unions - I have a lot of trouble with their street attitudes. One is
corrupt. The other is stupid. And I recently tried again with a very
famous national union to do some organizing for them.

[Percival P. Cassidy]

On 10/11/05 08:13 am TheSnoMan tossed the following ingredients into the
ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

[quote]They should be cracking down the health care industry to as it is out of
control on prices. Somebody has got to be sucking a LOT of fat off of
those fees.
[/quote]
Our previous primary care physician agreed the the US should have a
national healthcare system like most civilized countries, but said it
would be difficult to implement because too many people have their hands
in the cookie jar.

Perce

[Mike Hunter]

You are kidding right? Be careful what you wish for, as they say, you might
get your wish. Currently it is a buyers market for vehicles, keeping new
vehicle prices in check, because there is more capacity to build more
vehicles then there are buyers in the US. GM sells over 30% of all the
vehicles in the US, nearly a third more than Ford and three times as many as
the number three manufacture, Toyota. If GM went under the demand would far
exceed the available production effecting economies of scale and the price
of vehicles would skyrocket at least 25% or more. Those hurt the most
would be those that buy econoboxes, vehicles that are currently subsidized
by larger cars and trucks far more profitable vehicle sales. In addition
the corporate and personal income taxes lost, federal and state taxpayers
would have to absorb most of the cost of pensions, unemployment and
bankruptcies etc for those hundreds of thousands of employees that work for
GM, it suppliers and it dealers that would be out of a job..

mike hunt


"Larry Crites" <larrycrites@bresnan.net> wrote in message
news:N_OdnSxyrtj6N9feRVn-gg@bresnan.com...
[quote]Delphi supplies General Maintenance (GM). GM was/is Delphi's parent.
Wouldn't bother me one bit if both went out of business. They should be
shut
down.

Larry
Behold Beware Believe[/quote]

[Mike Hunter]

Get real, who told you that unions are the problem, you boss at Wal-Mart?
Toyotas sell for more on average then competitive cars made by GM and Ford
and their nonunion employees are paid less and receive less desirable
benefits and pensions. The fact is less than 14% of all the workers in the
US belong to a union and more than half that do, work for the various
governments who are outside the competitive marketplace. Our problems
start and end with our own buying habits.

mike hunt


"tony kujawa" <tonykujawa@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
news:434aaaba$0$49014$14726298@news.sunsite.dk...
[quote]I blame the absolute greed of the uaw worker, they put themselves in this
predicament. Does someone putting a nut on a bolt deserve $27/hr plus
enough O.T to make 6 figures a year? F no. I feel for the real skilled
workers in this country struggling to survive, not the overpaid uaw
worker.
When you have janitors making $100K a year something is going to give.



"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:fBadnfJMDefMENfeUSdV9g@ptd.net...
You can blame the American manufactures all you want but the problems in
this county are caused by the consumer. The problem is domestics
manufacture have to compete with foreign manufactures who can build their
vehicles in other countries that have far lower wages and far less costly
government regulations on how they must run their business. In addition
they need to compete with those foreign manufactures, like Toyota, who
merely assemble their vehicle in the US, using lower paid workers who
receive fewer benefit, of mostly lower cost imported parts. The greed of
the American consumer had led them to buy more and more lower cost
imported
products yet expect to continue to garner higher American wages and
benefits. Something has to give. Unlike Japanese consumers, who support
their own economy, the American consumers in their greed are not likely
to
support American manufactures by paying higher prices to maintain their
own
economy. American manufacture more and more are being forced to do what
the
consumer is doing by going to those same sources to lower their cost of
making their products. If American consumers are willing to buy foreign
goods over American made goods they are going to be forced to accept
lower
wages from their employers, or worse, they will see their employer go out
of
business or move their production to lower priced countries, as well..
If
American corporations start building their products off shore, as well,
at
least we will still have American corporations paying federal cooperate
income taxes on the profits made in the US. That is far better than some
foreign company taking all of their profits out of the county along with
the
American jobs, as is currently the case. Middle class Americans better
soon
wake up or the only thing your grandchildren will need to know to get a
job
is how to say 'Do you want fries with that?' or 'Welcome to Wal-Mart.'

mike hunt


"Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message
news:c644ea112cb77d090c9ebf950401d32e@dizum.com...
Delphi, which supplies suspension systems for the Mini and Range Rover
Sport and cruise controls for Jaguar, was forced to seek bankruptcy
protection in a New York court after failing to win concessions with
unions. The United Auto Workers union resisted its attempts to cut
hourly
wages by more than half, to about $10 or $12.


If American corporations have their designs on Third World wages for
American workers, they'll be looking at general strikes as are seen in
parts of Europe.




[/quote]

[Mike Hunter]

Actually that is not true, based on all the available facts. The average
personal income and the average family income is the US for all segments,
poor, middleclass, upper middleclass and the rich are all up, not down,
since the nineties. Same is true of the recent tax cuts. Income to the
federal treasury is UP, not down, since the nineties. ;)

mike hunt


[quote]
The boys at the top get more money and the working man gets less. Sounds
like the Bushism is working.[/quote]

[Mike Hunter]

The consumer can stop that if that is what you believe happed. Don't buy
foreign goods or product assemble in the US of foreign parts, like Toyotas
etc.

mike hunt


"Sarge" <licker@lickersacademy.edu> wrote in message
news:difdaa02q64@enews2.newsguy.com...
[quote]"Daniel J. Stern" wrote: "When we vote for politicians who sell off
America's jobs in bulk to the lowest offshore bidder, then yes, that is
exactly what we deserve."

Every President for the last 30 years has help sell off America's jobs.
Free trade agreements without requiring them to meet better environmental
issues and safety for its employees is part of the problem.

Sarge

[/quote]

[Mike Hunter]

Federal traffic controllers were fired for violating their CONTRACT. Like
many union contracts they had a no strike clause. Unions represent
employees and unions have only ONE right in that contract and that is the
right to force the employers to abide by the terms of that contract or pay a
price when they do not, period. Unions have no right to violate that
contract or they pay a price as well.. The union was advised by President
Ragan that if they violated their contract they would be fired, they chose
to go out on strike anyway and were fired.

mike hunt


"Roy" <Roy@home.net> wrote in message
news:PYKdnfR4lLXjU9beRVn-gA@comcast.com...
[quote]
"John Horner" <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7_J2f.13934$wm3.7720@trnddc01...
Nomen Nescio wrote:


If American corporations have their designs on Third World wages for
American workers, they'll be looking at general strikes as are seen in
parts of Europe.



Go right ahead, call a general strike of all unionized employees in the
US of A. Keep it up for at least 12 months. At the end of that game
there will be no union jobs left and the country will simply go on just
fine.

It would never happen. Rail unions can't get out on strike as the
govenment would step in and has. Hell, look what happened to PATCO. The
friend of the working man fired them.

Roy
John

[/quote]

[treeline12345@yahoo.com]

David Starr wrote:

[quote]There's no incentive to do a good job. The goof-offs get the same money as the
hard workers. Ride the good horse and ignore the bad ones. When you ride him
into the ground, find another good horse.

c) it was fat city for a long time. so much wasted money and corruption
in too many places. what's the difference between the union workers in
michigan and the government workers in washington dc and other places?

In DC they wear suits. :-)

it's ain't over until the fat lady sings and if you listen closely, you
will hear a far off song.

It's not all that far away now.
[/quote]
Yup, it's not a good feeling knowing that.

Who's the cat in your picture? A baby leopard? For a moment he looked
like one of those half-wild Asian cats that make pets but this one
looks truly annoyed and feral. It's the first pix. The tigers I can
figure out :) I haven't done any 4x5 since I dropped a whole bunch in a
tank and ruined everything.


[quote]- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography

Web Site: www.destarr.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -[/quote]

[Mike Hunter]

One hears stories like that all the time but management can fire, or demote
any union workers not performing their job up to the skill level required by
the contract to hold that job. If someone like that is on the job it is a
management problem. A union can not protect a worker who does not do his
job, come to work on time, stay through the shift, does not report off,
steals, fights, is insubordinate etc.. If you ever worked in a union shop
you should know that.

mike hunt


<treeline12345@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1129068381.758943.182830@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
[quote]
David Starr wrote:

There's no incentive to do a good job. The goof-offs get the same money
as the
hard workers. Ride the good horse and ignore the bad ones. When you
ride him
into the ground, find another good horse.

c) it was fat city for a long time. so much wasted money and corruption
in too many places. what's the difference between the union workers in
michigan and the government workers in washington dc and other places?

In DC they wear suits. :-)

it's ain't over until the fat lady sings and if you listen closely, you
will hear a far off song.

It's not all that far away now.

Yup, it's not a good feeling knowing that.

Who's the cat in your picture? A baby leopard? For a moment he looked
like one of those half-wild Asian cats that make pets but this one
looks truly annoyed and feral. It's the first pix. The tigers I can
figure out :) I haven't done any 4x5 since I dropped a whole bunch in a
tank and ruined everything.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography

Web Site: www.destarr.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[/quote]

[Percival P. Cassidy]

On 10/11/05 01:30 pm David Starr tossed the following ingredients into
the ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

[quote]We once had a guy that was fired 18 times in 17 years for drunkenness. The
Union got him back every time. They got him transferred to another plant in the
hope that a change of scenery, and management, would help him. I never heard
how it worked out.
[/quote]
Q. What's the difference between a drunk and an alcoholic?
A. An alcoholic still has to go to Board meetings.

IOW, the big wheels with an alcohol problem typically got off much more
easily than the "rank and file": the former got sent for counseling, the
latter got fired. Maybe the "rank and file" are now getting treated more
like the big wheels in that respect.

Perce

[Sarge]

Mike Hunter wrote: "One hears stories like that all the time but management
can fire, or demote any union workers not performing their job up to the
skill level required by the contract to hold that job. If someone like that
is on the job it is a management problem. A union can not protect a worker
who does not do his job, come to work on time, stay through the shift, does
not report off,
steals, fights, is insubordinate etc.. If you ever worked in a union shop
you should know that."

Amen

If management does do a piss poor job of following their own rules and
documenting an employees actions prior to firing him, then they left
themselves open to having to rehire the person including give him back pay.
This happens in both union shops and non-union shops.

Sarge
PACE Local 4-750

[Backyard Mechanic]

"Percival P. Cassidy" <Nobody@NotMyISP.net> wrote in
news:zpX2f.11195$Ue7.2930@fe03.lga:

[quote]On 10/11/05 01:30 pm David Starr tossed the following ingredients into
the ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

We once had a guy that was fired 18 times in 17 years for
drunkenness. The Union got him back every time. They got him
transferred to another plant in the hope that a change of scenery,
and management, would help him. I never heard how it worked out.

Q. What's the difference between a drunk and an alcoholic?
A. An alcoholic still has to go to Board meetings.

IOW, the big wheels with an alcohol problem typically got off much
more easily than the "rank and file": the former got sent for
counseling, the latter got fired. Maybe the "rank and file" are now
getting treated more like the big wheels in that respect.

Perce

I have worked both on the floor and around middle and upper management,[/quote]
Bub! Believe me, a druggie or drunk is not tolerated long where he has no
union protection.
Another little difference... the drunk is often operating heavy
machinery...IOW like being around a drunk driver for an eight hour shift.

After work, alla same.

And what's this "now"? I saw plenty of it in the sixties.

[TheSnoMan]

Oh it happens, I can tell you some stories that you would not believe
about screwups being brought back to work by union. Maybe not in your
shop but it does happen a lot.

Sarge wrote:
[quote]Mike Hunter wrote: "One hears stories like that all the time but management
can fire, or demote any union workers not performing their job up to the
skill level required by the contract to hold that job. If someone like that
is on the job it is a management problem. A union can not protect a worker
who does not do his job, come to work on time, stay through the shift, does
not report off,
steals, fights, is insubordinate etc.. If you ever worked in a union shop
you should know that."

Amen

If management does do a piss poor job of following their own rules and
documenting an employees actions prior to firing him, then they left
themselves open to having to rehire the person including give him back pay.
This happens in both union shops and non-union shops.

Sarge
PACE Local 4-750

[/quote]