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[StingRay]

"trvth speaks" <dfrankes3000@.nosp.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a9596$434b0d16$d1cc7aea$19762@snip.allthenewsgroups.com...

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

"Tim & Linda" <lt.stoops@dontsendcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:6LGdnTSB-dig8dfeRVn-rg@comcast.com...
[quote]Delphi execs get boost in severance pay
http://www.freep.com/news/latestnews/pm6516_20051007.htm

The boys at the top get more money and the working man gets less. Sounds
like the Bushism is working.

[/quote]
I wouldn't worry much about that. A Bankruptcy court has total and complete
authority over all company operations, and can legally void any contract it
wants to.
And that includes the golden parachute contracts that self-serving execs
vote
for themselves.

Once a company goes banko all the investors know they will not get even
their
principal investment back, and that anything they can convince the
bankruptcy
court to cut will result in less of a loss for them. And execs that
mismange a
company into bankruptcy aren't easily going to find another job. There's
plenty
more execs out there available who can raid the company coffers just as
well.

Ted

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

"Backyard Mechanic" <pettyfog@yaywho.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96EB63CB66CB0pettyfogery@207.115.63.158...
[quote]"Daniel J. Stern" <dastern@127.0.0.1> wrote in
news:Pine.GSO.4.63.0510100910320.18643@alumni.engin.umich.edu:

The amazing idea that we should at the same time respect all other
cultures
and allow unfettered immigration, while hobbling local industry with
environmental and health-related legalities, but somehow prevent cheap
goods from nations that dont bother with such, is amazing beyond belief.

[/quote]
You need to see the big picture.

Back in the first part of the 1900s we had a huge and serious global problem
which resulted in 2 world wars and numerous smaller ones, to put simply,
government imperialism. At that time industry did not have the economic
power
it does today, national governments could do as they pleased.

We solved that by making these multinational corporations who ended up
with so much money and so many interests spread all over the place that
these
corporations found it very unprofitable to have these wars going all over,
so
they stopped them.

For example, imagine anyone trying to put together a Civil War in the
United States today. The big companies have offices all over the country,
if some group of states were fool enough to attempt to seceed, the
companies wouldn't stand for it, and the politicians attempting to do
so would have no funding for reelection, and the media empire which is
basically controlled by the big companies, would propagandize the
populations of those states into tossing those politicians out on their
ears.
And the Civil War was barely 150 years ago. The media empire today
teaches us it was all about slavery and economics and now that slavery
is gone and the South is industrialized those problems are solved and we
are just one big happy family. But the real truth is that the root cause of
the Civil War was Southern attitudes were very different from Northern
attitudes, you can see that by reading Southern and Northern writings of
the time. And despite 150 years of trying to change that, this is STILL
true
to this day - the differences in societal attitudes between North and South
still exist, although those differences are not as important as they once
were, not enough to start a war again.

And imagine another Mexican American war. We just had one about 160
years ago, imagine what would happen if either the Mexican or US government
tried declaring war on each other again? Once again, the big multinationals
have too much money invested, they would band together and take care
of the problem.

And imagine a German/US war, or a Japanese/US war. We just got out of
those about 60 years ago, there's still people alive who fought in those
wars.
Do you seriously think that GM and VISA and the other big companies
would permit either government to even get anywhere close to that sort of
thing today?

Now obviously this solution doesen't work everywhere, there's still some
Mid East areas that are not under multinational corporate control. Although
I will point out that Saudi Arabia which has the largest oil reserves in the
world, is very close to being under complete corporate domination, if not
already. And China is, of course, a long way from that still. But I think
in
my lifetime we will see China become yet another government under control
of the multinationals.

Literally within another century, the GLOBAL power sharing will be
between the national governments and the multinational corporations. Each
will act as a check on the other. It will be messy, and a lot of parts of
it
will not be democratic, but it will be pretty damn close to the idea of a
government of checks and balances. Thus we will in a space of about 300
years, gone from a world ruled by despots, with absolute control, and
who regularly started wars that killed millions of people, to a world ruled
by corporations and governments each who have vested interests in NOT
starting wars that kill millions of people, and who have internal mechanisms
in place that flush out the very types of people who would want to start
these wars. And with nuke weapons available, we pretty much have no
other way to go.

The key here though is that the multinational corporations cannot exert
any control over a national government that does not govern a nation of
consumers. That is why rogue governments can exist - because they
do not allow their citizens to get more than sustenence level, thus those
people never can exert ballot box or other control over those governments,
and since those people are not consuming the products of the multinational
corporations, those corporations have no control over those people and
cannot propagandize them with movies and media and news to affect
the national governments.

That is why jobs are going from America to the rest of the world. Not
because any of those companies WANTS to move AWAY from the US.
It is because those companies WANT to move TO the foreign job
markets. Big difference there.

Think of the time it took the US population to move from an early industrial
society of a bunch of piss-poor people in cities working shit jobs in
factories, with no child labor laws, and the profits all going to industry
barons, to a society of people who had unions and labor laws that
divert a good chunk of those profits back into the workers pockets.

The places like India and Pakistan and China are where the US industry
was at back in the early 1900's. Not in terms of technology, because
you can always buy technology. But in terms of what the members of
those societies expect is right and fair.

Workers in India and Mexico are happy to have a job, any job, that is
true. And maybe those workers will be like that the rest of their lives.
But what about their children? And those children's children? The
Mexican workers are what they are now because they grew up in
a country where there was no hope of them getting a job. But when those
workers end up spending their lives working in some American factory
in Mexico, their children will grow up with a hope of getting a job. And
as a result those children -won't- be perfectly contented to take the worst
and most menial jobs for little pay. And so it will go in Mexico until in
another century, the Mexican population will all have environmental laws
and labor laws and TV sets that will
be used to propagandize them into consuming, believing, voting, and
acting the way that the multinationals want them to be, just like the US
population consumes, believes, votes, and acts just like the multinationals
want us to act. And the Indian population too. And the Chinese population,
and as many other national populations as can be converted will be.

One day, very very soon, in fact in a blink of an eye when measured
by the total length of human populations existence on the planet, there
will be no part of the Earth on which people do not work any different
than any other part of the Earth. Oh, they will all still have their quaint
local customs, but they all will own cars that all cost the same, they all
will work at jobs that pay comparably the same, they all will spend money
on the same things others spend money on. At that time there will be
no more of this complaints of companies moving jobs away, simply
because there will be no job markets anywhere left on Earth where you
can get people who work for next to nothing. All of them will be
wanting roughly the same money.

You can already see this if you do a lot of traveling. Take any US
citizen that lives in any US city and drop them in any major city
in Europe and they won't be able to tell the difference except for
the language.

Until this all comes about, the unfortunate fact is that the people
who have rich societies, like the US, are going to lose money.
We are paying for those undeveloped societies to be rushed
into being developed societies, because the quicker they can
be brought along, the quicker they can start getting significant amounts
of unallocated spending money that they can use to be good little
consumers, under the control of the multinationals.

If all of this repels you, then you can refuse to be a good little
consumer, and buy locally made and locally grown. It will be
more costly, and you will not be able to have as many things
as your neighbors who buy cheap Chinese knockoffs. But you
will have the satisfaction of knowing your throwing a monkey wrench
in the plans of the large multinationals and big governments. But
unfortunately, most of your neighbors won't be able to let go of
the teat on the TV set, and so your efforts will be like spitting in
the ocean. But, if it makes you feel better, do it by all means!

Ted

[Bill Putney]

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

[quote]...Literally within another century, the GLOBAL power sharing will be
between the national governments and the multinational corporations. Each
will act as a check on the other. It will be messy, and a lot of parts of
it
will not be democratic, but it will be pretty damn close to the idea of a
government of checks and balances. Thus we will in a space of about 300
years, gone from a world ruled by despots, with absolute control, and
who regularly started wars that killed millions of people, to a world ruled
by corporations and governments each who have vested interests in NOT
starting wars that kill millions of people, and who have internal mechanisms
in place that flush out the very types of people who would want to start
these wars. And with nuke weapons available, we pretty much have no
other way to go...
[/quote]
You fail to factor in terrorists whose intent is to set up sharia
governments, establish dhemma status and collect jizya where they can,
and otherwise to disrupt and either convert or kill millions of people
and destabilize economies whenever possible.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

[TheSnoMan]

John Horner wrote:
[quote]MoPar Man wrote:

David wrote:


Wrong, the employers in Canada have to pay the Government for
healthcare. Any employer be it 1 employee to thousands, has to
pay for the healthcare of all employees.



In Canada (specifically, Ontario):

Employer health tax is paid by the employer based on 1.95% of the
employee's pay (it does not come out of the employees pay). There is
no ceiling or limit on this tax.


That is a complete bargain. I own a small retail business, and it costs
over $800 per month to provide bare bones health insurance for our
employees. That comes out to over 12% of our monthly payroll costs and
many of the employees are not in the plan because they get better
insurance from a spouse's job.

John
[/quote]

They should be cracking down the health care industry to as it is out of
control on prices. Somebody has got to be sucking a LOT of fat off of
those fees.

-----------------
www.thesnoman.com

[Backyard Mechanic]

Bill Putney <bptn@kinez.net> wrote in news:dig4go$204$1@news.isdn.net:

[quote]Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

...Literally within another century, the GLOBAL power sharing will be
between the national governments and the multinational corporations.
Each will act as a check on the other. It will be messy, and a lot
of parts of it
will not be democratic, but it will be pretty damn close to the idea
of a government of checks and balances. Thus we will in a space of
about 300 years, gone from a world ruled by despots, with absolute
control, and who regularly started wars that killed millions of
people, to a world ruled by corporations and governments each who
have vested interests in NOT starting wars that kill millions of
people, and who have internal mechanisms in place that flush out the
very types of people who would want to start these wars. And with
nuke weapons available, we pretty much have no other way to go...

You fail to factor in terrorists whose intent is to set up sharia
governments, establish dhemma status and collect jizya where they can,
and otherwise to disrupt and either convert or kill millions of people
and destabilize economies whenever possible.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')
[/quote]
Well, put, Bill.... They ARE the common enemy because they DO see the
world picture and are in a life/death struggle. If the world society
isnt worn down to the point of accepting a return to feudalism, the
glorious "Caliphate" model is dead.


And Ted, I DO see the big picture!

That's exactly what I meant. Like Bush and many others before him say...
countries whose wealth depends on trade dont shoot at each other.

your cause and effect is a little cock-eyed... the Civil war WAS about
trade and other nations chose sides in the conflict BASED on which
outcome would affect them most.

As long as there is separation between civil governemnt and corporate
government, we will be okay. Enrons and Worldcoms are bad.. sure
enough.. but the saving factor is they will be found out either by their
shareholders or the government or both.

Currently that doesnt happen easily in China... but there's a growing
populist resistance there that dukes it out with Beijing on one side and
World Socialists on the other.

The dangers lie in de-facto National Socialism or a regression to central
planned economies using confiscated corporate resources to compete
(Venezuela)

On the domestic front... if Unions had tended to their knitting and acted
more like a guild than a labor agent, we wouldnt have a lot of this mess.

My whole family is GM/Harrison/Delphi... my dad and brothers retired from
Dayton plants.. (fortunately opted for GM retirement over Delphi).

EVERY family dinner involved a 'preaching to the choir' litany about the
waste and corruption in the assembly lines. The unions were self-
centered and corrupt when I worked there in the sixties and it only got
worse.

The locals in Dayton are more concerned with appealing the cases of their
members caught dealing drugs than helping Delphi find a way to keep the
plants open.

And NO, my family WASNT management they were line workers.. and my
brothers both were foremen at one time then gave it up because upper
plant management didnt care about trying to eliminate waste and low
productivity......

Bottom Line for automotive middle management: "Dont rock the boat"

[MoPar Man]

John Horner wrote:

[quote]In Canada (specifically, Ontario):

Employer health tax is paid by the employer based on 1.95% of
the employee's pay (it does not come out of the employees pay).
There is no ceiling or limit on this tax.

That is a complete bargain. I own a small retail business, and
it costs over $800 per month to provide bare bones health
insurance for our employees. That comes out to over 12% of our
monthly payroll costs and many of the employees are not in the
plan because they get better insurance from a spouse's job.
[/quote]
It's pretty common for (Canadian / Ontario) companies to arrange for a
private health and life insurance plan (above and beyond what the
gov't health insurance provides). Such plans require 100%
participation (for everything except dental, which can be
"opt-outable" if the employee's spouse is covered with their own
plan).

Such supplementary insurance consist of accidental
death/dismemberment, drug plan, physiotherapy, appliances such as
orthotics, crutches, braces, possibly a life insurance component,
etc. A typical cost for a plan like this is $150 per month per
employee. 75% of the total cost of a package like this is paid by the
employee (deduction from pay), the other 25% paid by the employer.

Some persistent problems with health care in Ontario is:

1) long waiting times for planned or elective orthopedic
surgery. There are so many senior citizens that are
injuring themselves (breaking their hips) that they are
taking up much of the orthopedic surgical resources.

2) lack of a familiy doctor (ie General Practitioner or "GP").
Many people go to walk-in clinics (or hospital emergency
departments) because they have no family doctor.
This is because the cost of a medical education in Canada
is low compared to the US, and as such med students in
Canada tend to continue into a medical specialty after
their initial 4 or 5 years of medical education, while in
the US a greater percentage of students do not have the
financial resources to continue into a specialty and hence
become GP's in order to start paying down their debt.
This problem is compounded by more females entering med
school, and they (more than males) are likely to not work
full time (or drop in and out of the work force as their
life circumstances change). Since med school enrollment
numbers are highly regulated, every student that enters
and does not participate fully in the medical work force
is a liability or a wasted resource. Also, many do not
find that a GP is a rewarding career or lifestyle, and
would rather specialize and spend their time interacting
with technology (scans, surgical instruments, computers,
robots) than dealing with the messy issues that pertain
to dealing directly with patients (as GP's do). A high
percentage of a GP's workload is either babies/kids or
old people (you've really got to have a love for people to
deal with either group).

[Roy]

"John Horner" <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7_J2f.13934$wm3.7720@trnddc01...
[quote]Nomen Nescio wrote:


If American corporations have their designs on Third World wages for
American workers, they'll be looking at general strikes as are seen in
parts of Europe.



Go right ahead, call a general strike of all unionized employees in the US
of A. Keep it up for at least 12 months. At the end of that game there
will be no union jobs left and the country will simply go on just fine.
[/quote]
It would never happen. Rail unions can't get out on strike as the govenment
would step in and has. Hell, look what happened to PATCO. The friend of the
working man fired them.

Roy
> John

[I'm Right]

delphi as well as all us auto plants pay about $65 per hour in wages and
benefits to hourly employees.
the hourly and salary folks are not worth anywhere near that amount of
money.


"Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message
news:c644ea112cb77d090c9ebf950401d32e@dizum.com...
[quote]Delphi, which supplies suspension systems for the Mini and Range Rover
Sport and cruise controls for Jaguar, was forced to seek bankruptcy
protection in a New York court after failing to win concessions with
unions. The United Auto Workers union resisted its attempts to cut hourly
wages by more than half, to about $10 or $12.


If American corporations have their designs on Third World wages for
American workers, they'll be looking at general strikes as are seen in
parts of Europe.

"Delphi's decision would be extremely disappointing under any
circumstances, but it is all the more so in light of the company's
announcement on Friday -- just one day before filing bankruptcy -- that
it
had sweetened the severance packages for Delphi's 21 most highly
compensated executives because the old severance package was -- as a
Delphi spokesperson put it -- 'uncompetitive.'


Golden parachutes? A general strike will bring corporate America to its
senses. Executives should be pink slipped on Friday for Monday's
uncompensated layoff.

If you think Mexican or Chinese auto parts will cost you less, you're
sadly
mistaken. You'll pay the same price for them as if American workers made
those parts. Labor costs have nothing to do with your price. Profits
have
everything to do with your price. As labor costs go down, profits go
up...the price remains the same!
[/quote]

[Percival P. Cassidy]

On 10/11/05 05:38 am Ted Mittelstaedt tossed the following ingredients
into the ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

[quote]Literally within another century, the GLOBAL power sharing will be
between the national governments and the multinational corporations. Each
will act as a check on the other.
[/quote]
On a much smaller scale, Australia had this, but I think that it's been
demolished to a large extent in more recent years (I no longer live
there). Many, if not all, States (no matter whether the ruling party was
conservative or more socialist) had State-run enterprises in competition
with privately run ones. There were State banks in competition with
private ones, offering checking and savings accounts and home loans;
there were State insurance offices in competition with private ones,
offering motor-vehicle insurance, life insurance and homeowners'
insurance; there were State Housing Commissions/Trusts in competition
with private builders and property developers, offering homes for sale
as well as for rental. At the Commonwealth (federal) level, the
Commonwealth Bank competed with all the other banks, and a
government-run domestic airline competed with the only other nationwide
one, which was private (there were other private intrastate ones).

The private enterprises had the advantage of being less bureaucratic but
had to pay shareholders. The goverment-run enterprises had the advantage
of not having to show a profit (as long as they did not lose money), but
tended to be more bureaucratic: you have to have more people to keep
track of how "public money" is being spent -- but these people probably
got paid less anyway.

All in all I thought it worked pretty well. Each kept the other on its toes.

Perce

[StingRay]

"John Horner" <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:58K2f.13938$wm3.3609@trnddc01...
[quote]Nice try. If you don't like the message, discredit the messenger.

No matter who started it, the fact is that GM & Ford are about to go down
the same road already blazed by the steel companies and airlines.

John

[/quote]
"There is none so blind, as he who will not see!" John, I don't have to
discredit the messenger. He/she has already done a good job of that him/her
self. But then, I wouldn't expect you to check the source of posts made for
questionable purposes John. You obviously believe everything you read! A
simple Google of "Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com>" reveals no less than 997
hit-and-run posts to NG's and sites around the world. See for yourself - and
learn! Apology accepted John - if you're man enough. ;-)

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=Nomen+Nescio+%3Cnobody@dizum.com%3E&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

[treeline12345@yahoo.com]

I'm Right wrote:
[quote]delphi as well as all us auto plants pay about $65 per hour in wages and
benefits to hourly employees.
the hourly and salary folks are not worth anywhere near that amount of
money.
[/quote]
And whose fault is that?

a) MBA's and accountants who dumbed down the production line.

Remember that truly outstanding engineer, Bas Ruttan?, the one who won
the prize for the man-powered flight, across the English Channel was it
or something like that? Decades ago he tried to help them design a car
now known as a hybrid. The engineers just could not handle innovations
of his that are now common on the Japanese cars.

Or was it Demming who showed the Japanese zero defects production? Half
a century ago.

b) the unions did not help. everybody likes to get paid more than they
are worth. but to think and to read and to innovate - are they
encouraged by the unions? look at the teacher's unions. keeping dumb
teachers in place at all costs. or the cop unions keeping corrupt cops
on the job, brutal, nasty cops who are lucky they are not in prison
themselves.

c) it was fat city for a long time. so much wasted money and corruption
in too many places. what's the difference between the union workers in
michigan and the government workers in washington dc and other places?
it's ain't over until the fat lady sings and if you listen closely, you
will hear a far off song.

[Roy]

<treeline12345@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1129049471.047636.12210@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
[quote]I'm Right wrote:
delphi as well as all us auto plants pay about $65 per hour in wages and
benefits to hourly employees.
the hourly and salary folks are not worth anywhere near that amount of
money.

And whose fault is that?

a) MBA's and accountants who dumbed down the production line.

Remember that truly outstanding engineer, Bas Ruttan?, the one who won
the prize for the man-powered flight, across the English Channel was it
or something like that? Decades ago he tried to help them design a car
now known as a hybrid. The engineers just could not handle innovations
of his that are now common on the Japanese cars.

Or was it Demming who showed the Japanese zero defects production? Half
a century ago.

b) the unions did not help.
[/quote]
You folks ought to read some history. Do you really think that companies
like to give you a paid vacation, sick days, paid medical? Paid medical,
notice that when unions clout began to erode out came the HMO? Prior it was
a comprehensive program where you could go to any doctor you wanted to see.
Now they control that. Where the heck do you think the 40hour week came
from?
Union men and woman fought and some died to get you the benefits you enjoy
today. Do some unions suck yup. but some do a hell of a job.
You might want to think where you'd be without unions, also where you will
be if they are gone. We have started down that slippery slope.imho

Roy

[Sarge]

Someone wrote: "b) the unions did not help. everybody likes to get paid more
than they are worth. but to think and to read and to innovate - are they
encouraged by the unions? look at the teacher's unions. keeping dumb
teachers in place at all costs. or the cop unions keeping corrupt cops on
the job, brutal, nasty cops who are lucky they are not in prison
themselves."

I would agree with some of your comments but not all. First is teachers
union made it hard to get rid of teachers once tenure was put in place.

I do have to disagree with cop unions. Most were reinstated by civil
service boards that are made up of the corrupt city officials friends.

On your comments a unions did not help is totally untrue. Having worked in
both union and non union locations, I can tell you that I been treated
better in union locations then non union locations. Safety conditions are
better in union shops then non union shops I worked in. Union have lost
more then they gained.

Have you every sat in on negotiations? The first thing on a unions wish
list is not wages but better working conditions and benefits. It is not the
union fault health care is so high. It is all of our fault for not taking
better care of ourselves. It is the fault of lawsuits that don't need to be
filed.

People formed unions to getter better working conditions then to get better
wages. Delphi is asking workers to go from roughly 28.00 dollars and hour
to 14 dollars and hour, give up their health insurance benefits and
retirement benefits. Delphi wants to cut retiree benefits and only pay a
pension.

They are not the only company wanting to do this. I work for a major
chemical company. They did not ask us to take a pay cut but want us to pay
more for our medical insurance. Presently they pay 80% and we pay 20%.
They want to step it back to 70% company and 30% employee and drop medical
on all future retirees. We rejected this idea because the company right now
is making record profits and they are asking us to pay more. The CEO just
got a 45 % pay raise. His profit sharing bonus is at 25% while ours is only
4% of our base salary plus 4% for all overtime pay.

Unions only ask that profits should benefit the low hourly workers as they
do upper management.

If you that concerned about this countries future then buy from American
companies that still have people working in this country and not from
companies that ship a finish product here. Buy union made products.

Union Proud
Union Made

Member of PACE local 4-750

Sarge

[David Starr]

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 13:44:22 GMT, Backyard Mechanic <pettyfog@yaywho.com> wrote:


[quote]On the domestic front... if Unions had tended to their knitting and acted
more like a guild than a labor agent, we wouldnt have a lot of this mess.

Agreed[/quote]

[quote]My whole family is GM/Harrison/Delphi... my dad and brothers retired from
Dayton plants.. (fortunately opted for GM retirement over Delphi).
[/quote]
Hopefully, their GM pensions (and mine) will be safe.

[quote]EVERY family dinner involved a 'preaching to the choir' litany about the
waste and corruption in the assembly lines. The unions were self-
centered and corrupt when I worked there in the sixties and it only got
worse.
[/quote]
Amen
[quote]
The locals in Dayton are more concerned with appealing the cases of their
members caught dealing drugs than helping Delphi find a way to keep the
plants open.
[/quote]
We once had a guy that was fired 18 times in 17 years for drunkenness. The
Union got him back every time. They got him transferred to another plant in the
hope that a change of scenery, and management, would help him. I never heard
how it worked out.
[quote]
And NO, my family WASNT management they were line workers.. and my
brothers both were foremen at one time then gave it up because upper
plant management didnt care about trying to eliminate waste and low
productivity......

Bottom Line for automotive middle management: "Dont rock the boat"
[/quote]
And don't forget to make the numbers look good, so the big guys get their
bonuses.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography

Web Site: www.destarr.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -