| Author |
Message |
Spike
Guest
|
 Posted:
Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:21 pm Post subject:
Re: Delphi Proposal to Cut Wages in Half! |
|
|
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 07:48:44 -0500, "Tim & Linda"
<lt.stoops@dontsendcomcast.net> wrote:
situation has been going on for decades..... since the days of a 16
hour day for $1.00 a day. Which means it's been going on under such
leadership as Clinton, Kennedy, etc, just as much as under Bush,
Reagan, etc. Saying it's a "Bushism" is totally ignorant of union
history.
It's not the worker, union or not, or the bosses, or the consumers, or
the 3rd world countries. It's a combination of all of it. You can't
simplify it. And it has been a continuous progress of complication as
more of the global economy becomes enmeshed.
The US economy has always been in an upward death spiral. Companies
want more profit, so they raise prices. Workers need more money to pay
those prices. They strike, or whatever, for higher wages, and, as long
as they are at it, more bennies. The company is forced to give them at
least a portion of what they demand. So they raise prices to cover the
increase. (No company has really ever paid for wage increases, or
taxes... the consumers do. Who are the consumers? The people who make
the products the companies sell.) It cuts across the board. GM workers
may go on strike, which has nothing to do with haircuts, but you'll
see barbershops raise their prices.
Companies also require continued population growth in order to sell
more products which increases profits and pays the costs of labor etc.
(The last thing the world needs is continuing population increase.)
Imagine how many cars Ford, GM or Honda would need to produce and
sell, if the population were stable, or even declining. The number of
units would shrink because there is no one to sell to except those
cases where a car is crashed or wears out. The rest would just be
sitting there. Which means a need for fewer employees, so layoffs
occur.... which leads to strikes.... which leads to higher wages, and
subsequent product cost increases.
Eventually, the system has to break down or change. Unfortunately, it
seems everything is headed for some form of socialism, where even the
lamest of society gets full benefits.
| Quote: |
"Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message
news:c644ea112cb77d090c9ebf950401d32e@dizum.com...
Delphi, which supplies suspension systems for the Mini and Range Rover
Sport and cruise controls for Jaguar, was forced to seek bankruptcy
protection in a New York court after failing to win concessions with
unions. The United Auto Workers union resisted its attempts to cut hourly
wages by more than half, to about $10 or $12.
If American corporations have their designs on Third World wages for
American workers, they'll be looking at general strikes as are seen in
parts of Europe.
"Delphi's decision would be extremely disappointing under any
circumstances, but it is all the more so in light of the company's
announcement on Friday -- just one day before filing bankruptcy -- that it
had sweetened the severance packages for Delphi's 21 most highly
compensated executives because the old severance package was -- as a
Delphi spokesperson put it -- 'uncompetitive.'
Golden parachutes? A general strike will bring corporate America to its
senses. Executives should be pink slipped on Friday for Monday's
uncompensated layoff.
If you think Mexican or Chinese auto parts will cost you less, you're
sadly
mistaken. You'll pay the same price for them as if American workers made
those parts. Labor costs have nothing to do with your price. Profits
have
everything to do with your price. As labor costs go down, profits go
up...the price remains the same!
|
Spike
1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40
16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial
225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video.
http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/davescar_7_11_05_002.jpg
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Larry Crites
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:52 pm Post subject:
Re: Delphi Proposal to Cut Wages in Half! |
|
|
Delphi supplies General Maintenance (GM). GM was/is Delphi's parent.
Wouldn't bother me one bit if both went out of business. They should be shut
down.
Larry
Behold Beware Believe
"Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message
news:c644ea112cb77d090c9ebf950401d32e@dizum.com...
| Golden parachutes? A general strike will bring corporate America to its
| senses. Executives should be pink slipped on Friday for Monday's
| uncompensated layoff.
|
| If you think Mexican or Chinese auto parts will cost you less, you're
sadly
| mistaken. You'll pay the same price for them as if American workers made
| those parts. Labor costs have nothing to do with your price. Profits
have
| everything to do with your price. As labor costs go down, profits go
| up...the price remains the same!
| |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tony kujawa
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:55 pm Post subject:
Re: Delphi Proposal to Cut Wages in Half! |
|
|
I blame the absolute greed of the uaw worker, they put themselves in this
predicament. Does someone putting a nut on a bolt deserve $27/hr plus
enough O.T to make 6 figures a year? F no. I feel for the real skilled
workers in this country struggling to survive, not the overpaid uaw worker.
When you have janitors making $100K a year something is going to give.
"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:fBadnfJMDefMENfeUSdV9g@ptd.net...
| Quote: | You can blame the American manufactures all you want but the problems in
this county are caused by the consumer. The problem is domestics
manufacture have to compete with foreign manufactures who can build their
vehicles in other countries that have far lower wages and far less costly
government regulations on how they must run their business. In addition
they need to compete with those foreign manufactures, like Toyota, who
merely assemble their vehicle in the US, using lower paid workers who
receive fewer benefit, of mostly lower cost imported parts. The greed of
the American consumer had led them to buy more and more lower cost
imported
products yet expect to continue to garner higher American wages and
benefits. Something has to give. Unlike Japanese consumers, who support
their own economy, the American consumers in their greed are not likely to
support American manufactures by paying higher prices to maintain their
own
economy. American manufacture more and more are being forced to do what
the
consumer is doing by going to those same sources to lower their cost of
making their products. If American consumers are willing to buy foreign
goods over American made goods they are going to be forced to accept lower
wages from their employers, or worse, they will see their employer go out
of
business or move their production to lower priced countries, as well.. If
American corporations start building their products off shore, as well, at
least we will still have American corporations paying federal cooperate
income taxes on the profits made in the US. That is far better than some
foreign company taking all of their profits out of the county along with
the
American jobs, as is currently the case. Middle class Americans better
soon
wake up or the only thing your grandchildren will need to know to get a
job
is how to say 'Do you want fries with that?' or 'Welcome to Wal-Mart.'
mike hunt
"Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message
news:c644ea112cb77d090c9ebf950401d32e@dizum.com...
Delphi, which supplies suspension systems for the Mini and Range Rover
Sport and cruise controls for Jaguar, was forced to seek bankruptcy
protection in a New York court after failing to win concessions with
unions. The United Auto Workers union resisted its attempts to cut
hourly
wages by more than half, to about $10 or $12.
If American corporations have their designs on Third World wages for
American workers, they'll be looking at general strikes as are seen in
parts of Europe.
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Spike
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:30 pm Post subject:
Re: Delphi Proposal to Cut Wages in Half! |
|
|
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:52:32 -0600, "Larry Crites"
<larrycrites@bresnan.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Delphi supplies General Maintenance (GM). GM was/is Delphi's parent.
Wouldn't bother me one bit if both went out of business. They should be shut
down.
.....which should please those people employed by them, along with |
taxpayers who will probably end up supporting them until (if and when)
they find something else....
Back in the early 70s (when dinosaurs ruled the earth : 0 ) Boeing
lost the SST contract to build the plane which was to compete with the
Concorde. All those people were laid off. A large number went on the
public rolls, but many also went to work doing anything to bring home
the bacon. Among the aerospace engineers were many who felt that it
was beneath their dignity to have a PhD hanging on the wall, and work
at McDucks supporting their families. So, you had college students,
welfare mothers (it was the 70s), and PHs all standing in line at the
grocery with food stamps in hand. And who pays for it?
| Quote: | Larry
Behold Beware Believe
"Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message
news:c644ea112cb77d090c9ebf950401d32e@dizum.com...
| Golden parachutes? A general strike will bring corporate America to its
| senses. Executives should be pink slipped on Friday for Monday's
| uncompensated layoff.
|
| If you think Mexican or Chinese auto parts will cost you less, you're
sadly
| mistaken. You'll pay the same price for them as if American workers made
| those parts. Labor costs have nothing to do with your price. Profits
have
| everything to do with your price. As labor costs go down, profits go
| up...the price remains the same!
|
|
Spike
1965 Ford Mustang fastback 2+2 A Code 289 C4 Trac-Lok
Vintage Burgundy w/Black Standard Interior; Vintage 40
16" rims w/BF Goodrich Comp T/A gForce Radial
225/50ZR16 KDWS skins; surround sound audio-video.
http://207.36.208.198/albums/86810/davescar_7_11_05_002.jpg |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
David Starr
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:33 am Post subject:
Re: Delphi Proposal to Cut Wages in Half! |
|
|
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:31:07 -0400, MoPar Man <MoPar@Man.com> wrote:
| Quote: | David wrote:
Wrong, the employers in Canada have to pay the Government for
healthcare. Any employer be it 1 employee to thousands, has to
pay for the healthcare of all employees.
In Canada (specifically, Ontario):
Employer health tax is paid by the employer based on 1.95% of the
employee's pay (it does not come out of the employees pay). There is
no ceiling or limit on this tax.
|
You can bet it has an effect on pay.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography
Web Site: www.destarr.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
David Starr
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:42 am Post subject:
Re: Delphi Proposal to Cut Wages in Half! |
|
|
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 13:55:10 -0400, "tony kujawa"
<tonykujawa@buckeye-express.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I blame the absolute greed of the uaw worker, they put themselves in this
predicament. Does someone putting a nut on a bolt deserve $27/hr plus
enough O.T to make 6 figures a year? F no. I feel for the real skilled
workers in this country struggling to survive, not the overpaid uaw worker.
When you have janitors making $100K a year something is going to give.
|
Then who would have the money to purchase the goods and services supplied by a
good portion of the country? Who will eat out 4 times a week when they make
$10.00 per hour? Who will buy new cars? Who will buy more that the barest
necessities? Put GM out of business and the effects will be felt everywhere.
When everything is outsourced, who will have the money to buy anything?
Look at it this way. Who is the largest employer where you live? If they went
out of business, what would be the effect in your area?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant.
Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography
Web Site: www.destarr.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Percival P. Cassidy
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:46 am Post subject:
Re: Delphi Proposal to Cut Wages in Half! |
|
|
On 10/10/05 11:31 am MoPar Man tossed the following ingredients into the
ever-growing pot of cybersoup:
| Quote: | Wrong, the employers in Canada have to pay the Government for
healthcare. Any employer be it 1 employee to thousands, has to
pay for the healthcare of all employees.
In Canada (specifically, Ontario):
Employer health tax is paid by the employer based on 1.95% of the
employee's pay (it does not come out of the employees pay). There is
no ceiling or limit on this tax.
Ontario health tax is a new tax (about a year old) and it does come
out of the employees pay (basically between $500 and $1000 per year,
scaled to pay).
|
We're paying more than that (i.e., more than $1000 *USD* per *month*)
for health insurance and still have significant co-pays.
In Australia (so a businessman from there was telling me recently) the
most anybody pays for health insurance is 2.5% of income -- and that
covers the retired and unemployed as well.
Perce |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ng_reader
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:42 am Post subject:
Re: Delphi Proposal to Cut Wages in Half! |
|
|
Good healthy thread.
Health Insurance, Canada, Unions and the UAW.
As much as I'd like to blame this current President, he's got *nothing* to
do with it.
But, cannot say greed and the consumer are really what's at play. That's a
malapropism.
Mr. Curious
"tony kujawa" <tonykujawa@buckeye-express.com> wrote in message
news:434aaaba$0$49014$14726298@news.sunsite.dk...
| Quote: | I blame the absolute greed of the uaw worker, they put themselves in this
predicament. Does someone putting a nut on a bolt deserve $27/hr plus
enough O.T to make 6 figures a year? F no. I feel for the real skilled
workers in this country struggling to survive, not the overpaid uaw
worker.
When you have janitors making $100K a year something is going to give.
"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:fBadnfJMDefMENfeUSdV9g@ptd.net...
You can blame the American manufactures all you want but the problems in
this county are caused by the consumer. The problem is domestics
manufacture have to compete with foreign manufactures who can build
their
vehicles in other countries that have far lower wages and far less
costly
government regulations on how they must run their business. In
addition
they need to compete with those foreign manufactures, like Toyota, who
merely assemble their vehicle in the US, using lower paid workers who
receive fewer benefit, of mostly lower cost imported parts. The greed
of
the American consumer had led them to buy more and more lower cost
imported
products yet expect to continue to garner higher American wages and
benefits. Something has to give. Unlike Japanese consumers, who
support
their own economy, the American consumers in their greed are not likely
to
support American manufactures by paying higher prices to maintain their
own
economy. American manufacture more and more are being forced to do what
the
consumer is doing by going to those same sources to lower their cost of
making their products. If American consumers are willing to buy foreign
goods over American made goods they are going to be forced to accept
lower
wages from their employers, or worse, they will see their employer go
out
of
business or move their production to lower priced countries, as well..
If
American corporations start building their products off shore, as well,
at
least we will still have American corporations paying federal cooperate
income taxes on the profits made in the US. That is far better than
some
foreign company taking all of their profits out of the county along with
the
American jobs, as is currently the case. Middle class Americans better
soon
wake up or the only thing your grandchildren will need to know to get a
job
is how to say 'Do you want fries with that?' or 'Welcome to Wal-Mart.'
mike hunt
"Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message
news:c644ea112cb77d090c9ebf950401d32e@dizum.com...
Delphi, which supplies suspension systems for the Mini and Range
Rover
Sport and cruise controls for Jaguar, was forced to seek bankruptcy
protection in a New York court after failing to win concessions with
unions. The United Auto Workers union resisted its attempts to cut
hourly
wages by more than half, to about $10 or $12.
If American corporations have their designs on Third World wages for
American workers, they'll be looking at general strikes as are seen in
parts of Europe.
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trvth speaks
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:53 am Post subject:
Re: Delphi (...! stick a fork into it folks!) |
|
|
"Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message
news:c644ea112cb77d090c9ebf950401d32e@dizum.com...
| Quote: | If American corporations have their designs on Third World wages for
American workers, they'll be looking at general strikes as are seen in
parts of Europe.
|
First Delphi....then GM....and then Ford in 2006.....
Just WATCH AND SEE. Oh, all you GM and Delphi
retirees had better get used to no health coverage
or that nice monthly check in a short time also.
Here is a DIRECT Quote from the IF Newsletter 5 Months ago:
"You may not want to believe it but our economy
has been in disintegration since 1989 and only
one trick after another has salvaged it. Just look
at the dollar. It is only reflecting the collapse of a
once great economy. Soon the US dollar will cease
to be the world's reserve currency. We have major
corporations on the verge of bankruptcy, GM is a good
example. As GM goes, so goes America and what is good
for GM is good for America. Its debt will shortly be junk.
Its supplier, Delphi, along with GM, is under investigation
and will precede GM into bankruptcy. Potential retirees
and pensioners are going to be in for a big surprise - l
ike the loss of 65% to 75% of their pensions. GM has
$50 billion in debt to refinance over the next 20 months.
We do not believe the market can or will want to handle
it. The market cannot even handle the Treasury
refinancings. That means interest rates have to
move, jeopardizing the future of the housing market and
complicating and increasing the cost of debt service.
There are many more complicating factors that are
going to be moving into the forefront in the weeks
and months ahead. Prepare yourself - it will be a difficult journey. "
(The above was written in June of 2005)
DELPHI USA IS DEAD - GET USED TO IT UAW BUNKIE !!
GMAC, General Motors Acceptance Corp., contributes
about two-thirds of GM's profits. After three years
of $5,000 rebates per car, which was double the sector
average, car and truck sale growth is falling. GMAC's
$260 billion debt is larger than all of that of the auto division
combined. As you saw in the last issue, GM's euro bond
issues are trading at a yield of over 11%, which is certainly
junk quality. The money maker GMAC is faced with
declining vehicle sales and has been a major investor in
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac mortgages, thus, as interest
rates rise and home prices fall, paper quality will come
into question and mortgage volume will dry up, especially
in cash outs and home equity loans. GMAC is facing a
double-edged sword. At GM the most profitable sales unit
is the SUV and with today's gasoline prices, they will suffer.
Sales overall for January and February were off 11% despite
having lowered prices in February. As you can see, the
market is simply saturated with vehicles. GM lost $2.6 billion
in Europe last year via Vauxhall, Saab and Opel and is
laying off 12,000 workers. Since 1980 the auto workforce
has shrunk by 70% due to deliberate de-industrialization
and, of course, thousands of smaller firms supplying the
industry have been phased out with massive job losses.
In 2006, GM either will pay off or refinance $44.7 billion
in debt and Ford has to do $37.1 billion or $174 billion
in debt. Can the market handle that at junk levels or will
they want too? That could be bonds with a 13-14%
coupon. Will financial firms, such as GMAC continue the
hobby of producing cars? We don't think so. Can you see
how deadly offshore production, outsourcing and
free trade and globalization has been for America?
Our industrial heartland has been destroyed. Fundamentally
both GM and GMAC are on a path to destruction as is Ford.
Borrowing costs have just jumped from 7.5% to over 11%.
Can they generate cash at these levels and still make a
profit? Delphi, the GM parts spin off, is now embroiled
in an Enron-type fraud scandal, which could indirectly
reflect on GM. Delphi has already informed 4,000 of its
salaried and retirees that it is ceasing to pay their health
care plan. GM and Delphi layoffs are over 10,000.
Suppliers are already at junk level and can only borrow
from GMAC to stay in business. Ford's Visteon is in
the same boat. The UAW is on a two-tier wage system
to save money and avoid layoffs.
If all of that wasn't bad enough GM's pension fund is
underfunded by $17 billion or is only funded to 80%
of its obligations. This comes as George and the neocons
push pension reform, better called, funding your plan.
This is a debt bomb and Washington knows it.
If reform passes Congress for the benefit of the
Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., many companies
will achieve junk status. GM wants to split off GMAC
hoping to save GMAC. If that happens this year it is
guaranteed GM will go into bankruptcy. PBGC is
already $23 billion in debt and can not absorb the
obligations to GM's hundreds of thousands of
pensioners. This is a disaster of major proportions.
Plus, they'll lose GM's pension insurance premium
payments. Even if GMAC is spun off we do not believe
they will escape attachment by PBGC. It should have
been spun off three years ago.
(Of course Delphi Mexico and Asia will still be in business.
Delphi USA and it's retirees are going into bankruptcy.
Enjoy the ride folks! Money is GOD) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
James C. Reeves
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 11, 2005 7:05 am Post subject:
Re: Delphi Proposal to Cut Wages in Half! |
|
|
"Tim & Linda" <lt.stoops@dontsendcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:6LGdnTSB-dig8dfeRVn-rg@comcast.com...
Top executive salary increases at these rates have been going on for
years...long before Bush took office. Was it "Clintonism" then. Of course
not. The problem is what is going on in the board rooms, not the Oval
Office. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Horner
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:14 am Post subject:
Re: Delphi Proposal to Cut Wages in Half! |
|
|
MoPar Man wrote:
| Quote: | David wrote:
Wrong, the employers in Canada have to pay the Government for
healthcare. Any employer be it 1 employee to thousands, has to
pay for the healthcare of all employees.
In Canada (specifically, Ontario):
Employer health tax is paid by the employer based on 1.95% of the
employee's pay (it does not come out of the employees pay). There is
no ceiling or limit on this tax.
|
That is a complete bargain. I own a small retail business, and it costs
over $800 per month to provide bare bones health insurance for our
employees. That comes out to over 12% of our monthly payroll costs and
many of the employees are not in the plan because they get better
insurance from a spouse's job.
John |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Horner
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:14 am Post subject:
Re: Delphi (...! stick a fork into it folks!) |
|
|
StingRay wrote:
| Quote: |
Funny how these 2 anonymous posters, who we have never heard from in these
NG's prior to this message, send their messages through remailer software!
When you try to trace these freaks, you get this message:
"This message did not originate from the Sender address above. It was
remailed automatically by anonymizing remailer software. Please report
problems or inappropriate use to the remailer administrator at
abuse@dizum.com>." That tell us a lot about their intent.
I've read a lot about stock manipulation over the years and this is a
typical method used when some jerk wants to short-sell company stock.
My advice is to ignor this thread completely, so we don't fall into their
self-serving trap.
|
Nice try. If you don't like the message, discredit the messenger.
No matter who started it, the fact is that GM & Ford are about to go
down the same road already blazed by the steel companies and airlines.
John |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Horner
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:14 am Post subject:
Re: Delphi Proposal to Cut Wages in Half! |
|
|
Nomen Nescio wrote:
| Quote: | If you think Mexican or Chinese auto parts will cost you less, you're sadly
mistaken. You'll pay the same price for them as if American workers made
those parts. Labor costs have nothing to do with your price. Profits have
everything to do with your price. As labor costs go down, profits go
up...the price remains the same!
|
Not true at all. I will be you a whole ton of money that the computer
you typed that on would be massively more expensive to purchase had it
been 100% made in the USA.
Certainly not all of the cost savings of off-shore production ends up in
the end customer's pocket, but a goodly portion of it does.
Have you noticed that those products which are primarily made in asia
have been on a long term downward price trend while those few thing
which are not easily imported into the US keep getting more expensive?
John |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Horner
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:15 am Post subject:
Re: Delphi Proposal to Cut Wages in Half! |
|
|
Nomen Nescio wrote:
| Quote: |
If American corporations have their designs on Third World wages for
American workers, they'll be looking at general strikes as are seen in
parts of Europe.
|
Go right ahead, call a general strike of all unionized employees in the
US of A. Keep it up for at least 12 months. At the end of that game
there will be no union jobs left and the country will simply go on just
fine.
John |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sarge
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:15 am Post subject:
Re: Delphi Proposal to Cut Wages in Half! |
|
|
"Daniel J. Stern" wrote: "When we vote for politicians who sell off
America's jobs in bulk to the lowest offshore bidder, then yes, that is
exactly what we deserve."
Every President for the last 30 years has help sell off America's jobs.
Free trade agreements without requiring them to meet better environmental
issues and safety for its employees is part of the problem.
Sarge |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
Memberlist
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in