| Author |
Message |
tech27
Guest
|
 Posted:
Sun Nov 14, 2004 2:28 am Post subject:
Re: NASCAR Question |
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"Somebody" <somebody@nospam.russdoucet.com> wrote in message
news:Bzwld.84030$vO1.486695@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
| Quote: | It is a bit sad when you think that once they really were street stock.
So
then you think "lets do that again" but you realise that street cars in
reality don't make good racers... one type will always win. So then you
try
to modify them a bit to keep them even... and you have European Touring
Cars
or the Speedvision Challenge Series or whatever they call it, which can be
annoying because it comes down to who gets what concession and it's hard
to
get parity. So then you think... let's have all the same street car! And
voiala you have the Porsche Challenge or the new one with the Civics or
whatever, which are so unpopular they can barely get funding to keep the
series alive.
|
Okay then, how about this for fun: The entire field is made up of
identically prepared Ferraris, then next week, another constructor, and so
on. Maybe a tad expensive but so what? Bernie's a billionaire isn't he?
| Quote: | I guess what I'm saying is, it's all been done. Just about every type of
racing you can think of has been tried. I find NASCAR, now that I've
gotten
to know it in detail, is a very exciting form of racing to watch, much as
I
first dismissed it as redneck bumper cars and a low tech, low intelligence
form of motorsports. It's a long way from what I like to do, which is run
on tight road courses where BMW's shine. But as entertainment, I enjoy
it.
|
I like it too. I also like chicken wings, burgers and beer. But I also like
seared fois gras, sushi, and a nice red wine.
| Quote: | If you really care about the racing, for the purity of racing, you need go
no farther than your local BMW chapter's club race. Those guys race for
the
glory, not the bucks. It's pure motorsport. And some of them are even
running street cars. To me, *that's* racing.
|
Yup.
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John Carrier
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Nov 14, 2004 8:44 am Post subject:
Re: NASCAR Question |
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"tech27" <tech27@mail.anonymizer.com> wrote in message
news:hMwld.25190$NC6.24683@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net...
| Quote: |
"John Carrier" <jxc2@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:j42dnX1CY6AjpwvcRVn-jA@comcast.com...
If racing improves the breed, what is NASCAR's contribution?
You don't think that "rednecks" have improved since Nascar came along? (-;
F-1
technological developments filter down in ways great and small (traction
control, brake improvements over the years, tire capabilities, etc) to
production automobiles.
You forgot to mention SMG shifters, or don't you think that's an
improvement? (Please-don't start another PRO-CON SMG war).
|
I'd consider it an improvement, but opinions vary. Couldn't run the full
laundry list, do we want to start with the 1907 Fiat?
| Quote: | NASCAR, firmly entrenched in decades-old
technology, rarely has signficant (any?) impact on road car development.
No no, the Nascar engineering values of brute force and barbaric theories
are found in most NA production cars.
BMW's support of F-1 is certainly marketing-centered, but I suspect
things learned in the Williams engine development effort find their way
into production cars. Brembo (brake supplier for Ferrari) applies its
racing experience to aftermarket (and occasionally production option)
brakes. And so it goes.
NASCAR is great performance art.
Kinda like wrestling?
|
Too much so, in my opinion. Again, opinions vary.
| Quote: | All the other major racing series (can
CART, or whatever it calls itself this week, be considered major any
more?) could learn a number of things from the way it markets its
product. But its tendancy to evolve rules throughout the season and a
point system that fails to put a significant premium on winning leave me
cold.
As it should. How much premium should be placed on a car/driver that wins
in a field of 12?
|
Well, the F-1 field is bigger than that. Sadly, M Schumacher and Ferrari
is a difficult combination to beat.
R / John |
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Somebody
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:34 am Post subject:
Re: NASCAR Question |
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"tech27" <tech27@mail.anonymizer.com> wrote in message
news:YZwld.25194$NC6.12177@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net...
| Quote: |
Okay then, how about this for fun: The entire field is made up of
identically prepared Ferraris, then next week, another constructor, and so
on. Maybe a tad expensive but so what? Bernie's a billionaire isn't he?
|
You know, you really brought a smile to my face on this one. What a
facinating idea! Though it wouldn't give the manufacturers much incentive.
How about this, still for fun... say there are an equal number of races to
the number of cars. Drivers can pick any car they want for any given
weekend, but they must pick each car once over the season. So twice they
will run Ferrari, twice Renault, etc. over the course of the season. This
allows Ferrari to show that they can win races with different drivers,
thereby keeping the manufacturer angle in it, but now levels the playing
field of driver vs equipment. You might have a weekend with a field of half
Ferrari and half Williams, but then one week you'll have top drivers running
BAR Hondas etc. Drivers too, get to prove their abilities with equipment
leveled, and the points work themselves out accordingly.
| Quote: | I like it too. I also like chicken wings, burgers and beer. But I also
like
seared fois gras, sushi, and a nice red wine.
|
Good analogy. :-)
-Russ.
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Somebody
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:40 am Post subject:
Re: NASCAR Question |
|
|
"tech27" <tech27@mail.anonymizer.com> wrote in message
news:hMwld.25190$NC6.24683@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net...
| Quote: | NASCAR is great performance art.
Kinda like wrestling?
|
The marketing may not seem far off, but in NASCAR the results and
competition are real, whereas in Pro wrestling they are scripted. That's
the usual troll though.
| Quote: | But its tendancy to evolve rules throughout the season and a point
system
that fails to put a significant premium on winning leave me cold.
As it should. How much premium should be placed on a car/driver that wins
in
a field of 12?
|
Uh, you're thinking of F1 with that. NASCAR fields 43, and with the parity
measures they've put in place, a lot of cars are right up there in the mix
for the lead, and if not are fighting hard for positions farther back.
Typically the lead changes 10 to 20 times among 5 to 15 drivers, per race.
-Russ. |
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Holger Hirschfeld
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 14, 2004 3:12 pm Post subject:
Re: NASCAR Question |
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|
Hi,
| Quote: | How about this, still for fun... say there are an equal number of races to
the number of cars. Drivers can pick any car they want for any given
weekend, but they must pick each car once over the season.
|
And where would than be the incentive for the manufacturers to develop
a racecar at all? Why invest Millions in new designs and technology,
if you mostly donīt benefit from it? And what about advertising? what
about the image transfer from racecar to streetCar? (I know the cars
donīt have much in Common, but the image transfer works anyway)
Mercedesī main reason to enter F1 was the attempt to attract younger
clients (Merc-Drivers where statistically older that Drivers of any
other german car, People in Germany startet to make jokes upon
that...) After some years of Coulthard an Hakkinen, MErc became
attractive for younger people again, although the F1 mcLaren Merc has
as much as nearly nothing in Common with the street cars but the name,
the star - and the image.
| Quote: | Ferrari and half Williams, but then one week you'll have top drivers running
BAR Hondas etc.
|
And 2 years later you will have Michael Schumacher piloting a Toyota
Yaris / Fiat Seicento, because TOyota and Ferrari have calculated that
developing own racecars is economically illogical. What a thrill. I
guess people will still be greedy to pay hundreds of Euros (or US$) to
witness a race like that.
Chuck Yeager said: Itīs the Man, not the machine. That was true ages
ago. Today itīs the man AND the machine. Whatever you look at.
--
Mit freundlichem Gruß
Holger Hirschfeld
(Für Mails bitte die "01" aus der Adresse streichen)
(For Mails please remove "01" from mailadress) |
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Somebody
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sun Nov 14, 2004 5:40 pm Post subject:
Re: NASCAR Question |
|
|
"Holger Hirschfeld" <hirschfeld01@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:17bep05se5vhdgiqq00v72g5ikmk7v85of@4ax.com...
| Quote: | Hi,
How about this, still for fun... say there are an equal number of races
to
the number of cars. Drivers can pick any car they want for any given
weekend, but they must pick each car once over the season.
And where would than be the incentive for the manufacturers to develop
a racecar at all? Why invest Millions in new designs and technology,
if you mostly donīt benefit from it? And what about advertising? what
about the image transfer from racecar to streetCar? (I know the cars
donīt have much in Common, but the image transfer works anyway)
|
The change I'm talking about doesn't change any of that. In fact, it allows
a manufacturer to say "it's not just our driver, it's our cars" if they win.
The manufacturer's championship and the driver's championship become
separate titles. Right now, Ferrari can't say that, and Shumacher can't say
that it's all him and not the car.
| Quote: | Ferrari and half Williams, but then one week you'll have top drivers
running
BAR Hondas etc.
And 2 years later you will have Michael Schumacher piloting a Toyota
Yaris / Fiat Seicento, because TOyota and Ferrari have calculated that
developing own racecars is economically illogical. What a thrill. I
guess people will still be greedy to pay hundreds of Euros (or US$) to
witness a race like that.
|
It always has been economically illogical. I don't get why you think the
change I'm talking about would change that. People are able to root for
their cars, or for their drivers, as per their own sensibilities.
| Quote: | Chuck Yeager said: Itīs the Man, not the machine. That was true ages
ago. Today itīs the man AND the machine. Whatever you look at.
|
Well, my strange innovation would settle the question now wouldn't it? Does
one car win consistantly no matter who is in it? Or does one driver win
consistantly no matter what he drives?
I don't know why the divorce of the marriage between 1 driver and 1 car
would destroy F1. Same stars, same cars, same venues. Only we break up the
Shumacher/Ferrari dominance, while both elements are still in the race.
-Russ. |
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tech27
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:30 am Post subject:
Re: NASCAR Question |
|
|
"Somebody" <somebody@nospam.russdoucet.com> wrote in message
news:%7Cld.84069$vO1.486707@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
| Quote: |
"tech27" <tech27@mail.anonymizer.com> wrote in message
news:YZwld.25194$NC6.12177@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net...
Okay then, how about this for fun: The entire field is made up of
identically prepared Ferraris, then next week, another constructor, and
so
on. Maybe a tad expensive but so what? Bernie's a billionaire isn't he?
You know, you really brought a smile to my face on this one. What a
facinating idea! Though it wouldn't give the manufacturers much
incentive.
|
Sure it would. They could just continue to say how they are only doing it to
test and improve all their R&D. PLUS-no more "who makes the better car?"
anymore. They'll all the same on different tracks. Besides, can you imagine
how great it would be for BAR Honda if they could say they finished 1-2-3
(4,5,6.......) at a race! (-;
| Quote: | How about this, still for fun... say there are an equal number of races to
the number of cars. Drivers can pick any car they want for any given
weekend, but they must pick each car once over the season. So twice they
will run Ferrari, twice Renault, etc. over the course of the season. This
allows Ferrari to show that they can win races with different drivers,
thereby keeping the manufacturer angle in it, but now levels the playing
field of driver vs equipment. You might have a weekend with a field of
half
Ferrari and half Williams, but then one week you'll have top drivers
running
BAR Hondas etc. Drivers too, get to prove their abilities with equipment
leveled, and the points work themselves out accordingly.
|
Now we're talking! How about the drivers all qualify with a stock M5, then
the starting positions cars are selected at random. Would be interesting to
see a Ferrari and MS start in the back but with different drivers/cars. Then
they could do "Survivor-F1" where the last race of the season is a 24 race!
| Quote: |
I like it too. I also like chicken wings, burgers and beer. But I also
like
seared fois gras, sushi, and a nice red wine.
Good analogy. :-)
-Russ.
|
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tech27
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:33 am Post subject:
Re: NASCAR Question |
|
|
"Somebody" <somebody@nospam.russdoucet.com> wrote in message
news:ddCld.84070$vO1.486764@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
| Quote: |
"tech27" <tech27@mail.anonymizer.com> wrote in message
news:hMwld.25190$NC6.24683@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net...
NASCAR is great performance art.
Kinda like wrestling?
The marketing may not seem far off, but in NASCAR the results and
competition are real, whereas in Pro wrestling they are scripted. That's
the usual troll though.
|
I wasn't referring to the outcomes, only the over the top hoopla and the
"bloodthirst/crashes" thing.
| Quote: |
But its tendancy to evolve rules throughout the season and a point
system
that fails to put a significant premium on winning leave me cold.
As it should. How much premium should be placed on a car/driver that wins
in
a field of 12?
|
Bad snip somebody - I was referring to the ever-shrinking CART fields.
| Quote: |
Uh, you're thinking of F1 with that. NASCAR fields 43,> -Russ.
|
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tech27
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:36 am Post subject:
Re: NASCAR Question |
|
|
"Holger Hirschfeld" <hirschfeld01@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:17bep05se5vhdgiqq00v72g5ikmk7v85of@4ax.com...
| Quote: | Hi,
How about this, still for fun... say there are an equal number of races to
the number of cars.
|
Same as it is now. Does Ferrari sell cars because they are good in F1? Been
to a BAR Honda dealership lately?
Drivers can pick any car they want for any given
| Quote: | weekend, but they must pick each car once over the season.
And where would than be the incentive for the manufacturers to develop
a racecar at all?
|
Same as it is now. Does Ferrari sell cars because they are good in F1? Been
to a BAR Honda dealership lately?
| Quote: |
Mercedesī main reason to enter F1 was the attempt to attract younger
clients .
|
Ha! Too bad Buick didn't field a team!
| Quote: | And 2 years later you will have Michael Schumacher piloting a Toyota
Yaris / Fiat Seicento, because TOyota and Ferrari have calculated that
developing own racecars is economically illogical. What a thrill. I
guess people will still be greedy to pay hundreds of Euros (or US$) to
witness a race like that.
|
Bernie hopes so.
| Quote: |
Chuck Yeager said: Itīs the Man, not the machine. That was true ages
ago. Today itīs the man AND the machine. Whatever you look at.
--
Mit freundlichem Gruß
Holger Hirschfeld
(Für Mails bitte die "01" aus der Adresse streichen)
(For Mails please remove "01" from mailadress) |
|
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Jeff Strickland
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:40 am Post subject:
Re: NASCAR Question |
|
|
"Somebody" <somebody@nospam.russdoucet.com> wrote in message
news:9g7ld.83900$vO1.485854@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
| Quote: |
"Jeff Strickland" <spamcatcher@yahoo.net> wrote in message
news:10p7ufcnm86bs09@corp.supernews.com...
recall, the driver gets a dial inside the car to adjust the suspension.
They
can also adjust the brake bias, something that NASCAR drivers do not have
the ability to do. A properly set up F1, Indy, or CART car will go
straight
That's incorrect, the drivers can indeed adjust the brake bias in a Cup
car.
Only useful at short tracks and road courses.
-Russ.
|
I'll have to pay more attention, I have never heard the guys on TV explain
about adjusting brake bias in a Cup car, or in Busch or the trucks either. I
always here them explain it in F1, Indy and CART. |
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Jeff Strickland
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:40 am Post subject:
Re: NASCAR Question |
|
|
"tech27" <tech27@mail.anonymizer.com> wrote in message
news:DWSkd.24556$NC6.19342@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net...
| Quote: |
"fbloogyudsr" <fbloogyudsr@nwlink.com> wrote in message
news:10p7u0hoov0ti6f@corp.supernews.com...
"tech27" <tech27@mail.anonymizer.com> wrote
Several things come to mind: weather (diff between qualifying and race
day),
groove (qualifying runs are usually in the inside/fastest groove),
airflow in
traffic (no side-by-side or drafting in qualifying), track temp (gets
warmer
during race due to many vs. one car), etc.
Floyd
Okay, I know that these factors come into play during just about any race,
but it seems to me that the Nascar crews are so far behind F1 in terms of
technology and refinement. I appreciate that the cars are radically
different, but for crying out loud, they're mostly just going round and
round on a highly banked track.
That's like saying that fruit picking and sorting is ancient because they |
collect and sort eggs differently.
NASCAR and F1 are as different as night and day. Which is "better" depends
alot on when you prefer to sleep. Add to the difference of night and day the
affect of weather, whether or not there is weather, and comparing one with
the other ends after it is discovered that each has 4 tires. The tires are
vastley different, the suspension bears little resemblence if any. The
frames are only the same in that they share the word "frame".
| Quote: | Another thing is how bad they are outside of their element. I don't know
if it's the cars or the drivers, but I do know that one relatively
successful team pulled their #1 driver for a road course event because
they wanted some point (kinda like constructors points I think). My fellow
Canadian Ron Fellows (excuse the pun), was recruited to pilot a car with
only a few days practice, and he drove it to second place. Most of the
Nascar drivers say they hate road courses, probably because the cars a
pieces of shit and not ment to do unusual things like turn, steer, and
brake.
|
That is true, NASCAR drivers often times make very poor road course drivers.
Some NASCAR drivers are very good road course drivers, but many are utterly
lost in a balanced car that can turn equally well in both directions.
Remember, these guys spend most of their lives making only left turns in
cars specifically designed to maximize the left turn capabilities.
Put them onto a course where they are expected to turn both ways, and they
just aren't ready. Besides Fellows, Boris Said also climbs out of his car
and into a cup car for road courses. There are about a half dozen F1 guys
that pull rides in a cup car at the toad course circuits. |
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Jeff Strickland
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:40 am Post subject:
Re: NASCAR Question |
|
|
"tech27" <tech27@mail.anonymizer.com> wrote in message
news:fd7ld.24697$NC6.15169@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net...
| Quote: |
"C.B. Evans" <evanschris@ZZZZcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:hKadnX_pBOTKqgncRVn-pQ@comcast.com...
I'd say that going 195+ in a 3500 pound car around Talladega
superspeedway for 500 miles with 40 other 3500 pound cars is hardly
"pee-nuckle"(it's actually pinochle).
It was intentional.
And to say the engineering involved is not up to par
with F1 is ridiculous. You're comparing apples to oranges.
Checkers to chess?
Actually, if
you really think about it, NASCAR is a tougher obstacle for engineering
than F1. With NASCAR you are working from a stock platform with
limitations on aero changes, template variations, and most importantly,
POWERTRAIN. NASCAR has strict limitations on engines. ALL manufacturers
must comply to the same guidelines when it comes to engine size,
modifications, etc. And, these engines are normally aspirated, barebone
V-8 small blocks. Nothing else. F1's engine packages are radically
different when it comes to limitations on power, chassis, and aero. And
F1's not a stock platform. The 'ole apples to oranges thing again.
NASCARs are not made for road handling, they are made for sustained
speed. Sustained speed while racing with 40 other guys, not darting into
corners and trying not to scratch the paint on your 3 million dollar car.
"I love any sort racing, no matter how silly it is". Mario Andretti
Just my $.02
C.
Good points.
|
Not that good.
NASCAR cup cars, and Busch Series and the Crafstman Truck Series too, are
nothing even close to stock. The chassis is not off the assembly line, the
drive train is nothing like what you get in a car today. All of the top
manufacturer specimins are front wheel drive, Taurus, Intrepid, Monte Carlo
(actually, I am not sure about the Chevy or Pontiac). These cars are all FWD
when you go buy one, but they are RWD on race day. Nothing about these cars
even remotely resembles "stock". They are allowed to race because the
manufacurers build street legal versions of them, but what you get for the
street shares nothing with the race bred cars yo are watching make an
endless array of left turns.
Back in the 60s and 70s, even into the 80s, they were cars off of the
showroom floor with modifictations done to them. But the modern era of stock
car racing has not used a car that has even been on a dealership lot, let
alone on the showroom floor. Don't kid yourself that today's NASCAR cars
bare any resembelence to the stock cars of yesteryear.
|
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Somebody
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:40 am Post subject:
Re: NASCAR Question |
|
|
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:10pg56qg9v6cl03@corp.supernews.com...
| Quote: |
"Somebody" <somebody@nospam.russdoucet.com> wrote in message
news:9g7ld.83900$vO1.485854@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
"Jeff Strickland" <spamcatcher@yahoo.net> wrote in message
news:10p7ufcnm86bs09@corp.supernews.com...
recall, the driver gets a dial inside the car to adjust the suspension.
They
can also adjust the brake bias, something that NASCAR drivers do not
have
the ability to do. A properly set up F1, Indy, or CART car will go
straight
That's incorrect, the drivers can indeed adjust the brake bias in a Cup
car.
Only useful at short tracks and road courses.
-Russ.
I'll have to pay more attention, I have never heard the guys on TV explain
about adjusting brake bias in a Cup car, or in Busch or the trucks either.
I
always here them explain it in F1, Indy and CART.
|
It's a pretty hot topic at Richmond or Martinsville where brakes are
paramount, and also to a lesser extent at either of the road courses. Other
than that it doesn't get much air time, simply because nobody ever touches
the adjustement at the superspeedways because there is no reason to at all.
Some of the other short tracks it will come up if a guy is having trouble
with his brakes, but that's about it. So I'm not surprised you haven't heard
it much if you weren't listening for it.
-Russ. |
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Somebody
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:40 am Post subject:
Re: NASCAR Question |
|
|
"tech27" <tech27@mail.anonymizer.com> wrote in message
news:wjPld.25261$NC6.7025@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net...
| Quote: |
"Somebody" <somebody@nospam.russdoucet.com> wrote in message
news:ddCld.84070$vO1.486764@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
"tech27" <tech27@mail.anonymizer.com> wrote in message
news:hMwld.25190$NC6.24683@newsread1.mlpsca01.us.to.verio.net...
NASCAR is great performance art.
Kinda like wrestling?
The marketing may not seem far off, but in NASCAR the results and
competition are real, whereas in Pro wrestling they are scripted.
That's
the usual troll though.
I wasn't referring to the outcomes, only the over the top hoopla and the
"bloodthirst/crashes" thing.
|
I won't argue that point then. Personally I'm disappointed how much crashes
feature in the promos. I don't like to see crashes, because I care for the
welfare of the drivers and don't want to see any of them hurt. Even if they
are leading my guy in the points.
| Quote: | But its tendancy to evolve rules throughout the season and a point
system
that fails to put a significant premium on winning leave me cold.
As it should. How much premium should be placed on a car/driver that
wins
in
a field of 12?
Bad snip somebody - I was referring to the ever-shrinking CART fields.
|
Ok, fair enough.... I don't follow CART at all so I guess that conversation
is over too.
-Russ. |
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tech27
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:40 am Post subject:
Re: NASCAR Question |
|
|
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlr@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:10pg81qb8gr3v7c@corp.supernews.com...
| Quote: | Don't kid yourself that today's NASCAR cars bare any resembelence to the
stock cars of yesteryear.
|
Well, you could also certainly say that F1 cars of today are very different
from those of yesteryear too. But I guess the point you are making (and
correctly so), is that it's time to stop using "Nascar" and stock car racing
together. But this probably won't stop. Record stores sell only CD's etc.
They are both outdated names. |
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