| Author |
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Charlie Giannetto
Guest
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 Posted:
Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:42 pm Post subject:
Re: 2005 545i vs 2005 A6 4.2 |
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In article <5ql1r0pjg7tpuhi29vm6rnf8jifeegqshp@4ax.com>,
E.R. <red_starinfrench@email.kom> wrote:
| Quote: | In a previous posting, charlieg@ic.sunysb.edu (Charlie
Giannetto) had the audacity to say:
: Although I haven't taken mine up past that value, the limiter on the
:US S4 is on paper only
Japanese voice
Ahh, rawsuit protection! ;}
/Japanese voice
:(not actually turned on in the ECU software),
:according to some reputable sources on the AudiWorld forums. The car
:should top out at or around 170 (assuming you had a place that you
:could actually reach that speed).
Are you sure it's not actually limited at all, assuming the
source rumour is correct? 'Cause I believe even the (original)
Euro spec cars have a 155 mph governor... which I personally
don't think is outrageous[ly low], but clearly a small
proportion of owners does.
|
I've read of people exploring the limits of the car on AudiWorld,
although I have no first hand experience. I believe that the limiter
value is indeed set to 155 in the ECU but the limiter flag itself is
actually set to false, which disables the function. The lack of a
speed limiter isn't really an issue since the speed (even at 155)
is still well beyond any legally acceptable level on any public road
in the US. 155 is something that the European community has agreed
on I believe so I'm not sure the fact that it might not be implemented
on a US spec car would be all that significant.
If you would like to look into this further, I suggest going to the
AudiWorld.com or B6S4.com web sites and searching for information on
"speed limiter" or "governor".
- Charlie
04 S4 MT6
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+ Rob +
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:41 am Post subject:
Re: 2005 545i vs 2005 A6 4.2 |
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"Fred W" <Fred.Wills@SPAMmyrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:tfCdnWTY4eukHC3cRVn-3Q@adelphia.com...
| Quote: | GRL wrote:
It may drive great and you can't tell how ugly it may be from inside,
but
remember, every time that you go to drive it you're going to have to
look at
it before you get inside.
A great drive is a great drive only while you're driving, but ugly is
forever.
- GRL
Pshaa! When most people are concerned about these cars' supposed
"ugliness", what they are really concerned about is what other people
will think about the car when they drive by in it.
|
Vanity isn't the only reason why people criticize the aesthetics of
these cars. Many people criticize these designs because they expect a lofty
$50k car to encompass more than just great function; they expect beautiful
form as well. And they -- or should I say we -- feel that many of both BMW's
and Audi's latest designs have taken a step backward in that regard.
Rob
2002 A4 3.0Q
2005 TT 3.2 DSG |
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Steve Grauman
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:11 pm Post subject:
Re: 2005 545i vs 2005 A6 4.2 |
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| Quote: | what they are really concerned about is what other people
will think about the car when they drive by in it.
|
BMW's yealry sales in North America are built almost entirely on the brand's
image. Break 1,000 BMW owners into groups of 10 and I bet that 9 out of every
10 of them will tell you that brand image helped sell them on the car. Audi
lacks the image and recognition of BMW and that's a big part of why they can't
sell as many cars. It also doesn't help that the average Audi (S and RS models
aside) can't hold a candle to the capabiltities of the average BMW. The A4 and
A6 simply cannot match the overall dynamics of the 3 and 5-series models.
Steve Grauman
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Steve Grauman
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:15 pm Post subject:
Re: 2005 545i vs 2005 A6 4.2 |
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I prefer the Audi's styling and I MUCH prefer it's interior, especially the MMI
interface, to the "5ers" interior and iDrive. However the Audi has been
criticized for somewhat vague steering and an overly stiff suspension, and
would probably not be able to match the 545i in pure dynamics. For me, it would
come down to which I value more: the interior or the "on the edge" performance
capabilities. I'd probably take the A6, because on a day to day basis, I'm not
going to be exploring the performance limits of either car and I'd rather live
with the A6's interior. I do like the E500 though....
Steve Grauman |
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+ Rob +
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:43 pm Post subject:
Re: 2005 545i vs 2005 A6 4.2 |
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"Steve Grauman" <oneactor1@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041206021128.14229.00001526@mb-m13.aol.com...
| Quote: | what they are really concerned about is what other people
will think about the car when they drive by in it.
BMW's yealry sales in North America are built almost entirely on the
brand's
image. Break 1,000 BMW owners into groups of 10 and I bet that 9 out of
every
10 of them will tell you that brand image helped sell them on the car.
Audi
lacks the image and recognition of BMW and that's a big part of why they
can't
sell as many cars. It also doesn't help that the average Audi (S and RS
models
aside) can't hold a candle to the capabiltities of the average BMW. The A4
and
A6 simply cannot match the overall dynamics of the 3 and 5-series models.
|
I don't disagree with you. 9 of 10 car buyers of ALL brands are likely
influenced by brand imagery to some extent -- whether it be "youthful
hipness" (Scion), "practicality" (Honda), "staid sophistication" (Mercedes),
or what have you. But that isn't to say that design doesn't count, or that
aesthetics are somehow above criticism.
Just look at Cadillac. At one time Cadillacs were considered by many to
be the very best that the automotive world had to offer -- the best
sheetmetal, the best drivetrains, the most luxurious interiors, etc. (hence
the phrase, "it's the Cadillac of......"). But then, gradually (while many
loyalists/apologists surely continued defending them), the design elements
slid downhill to a point where a large segment of the public no longer liked
the cars. So consumers were left to make a choice: do I buy a "legendary"
brand that I no longer like, or do I buy something less legendary that
appeals more to my senses? And the historical numbers clearly point that
most potential buyers eventually chose the second option. However --
surprise surprise! -- as soon as Cadillac introduced a crop of new designs
that people liked (Escalade, CTS, etc.), sales came back with a vengeance.
Do I think that means that BMW's are going to slide the way Cadillac's
did during the 70's and 80's? Not necessarily. But history shows (via
Cadillac, Nissan, Mazda, Chrysler and dozens of once stylish, but now
defunct brands) that ignoring consumers' wants/tastes and relying instead on
imagery to sell cars is not a viable long-term recipe for success.
Rob |
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E.R.
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 09, 2004 11:31 am Post subject:
Re: 2005 545i vs 2005 A6 4.2 |
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In a previous posting, charlieg@ic.sunysb.edu (Charlie
Giannetto) had the audacity to say:
:The lack of a
:speed limiter isn't really an issue since the speed (even at 155)
:is still well beyond any legally acceptable level on any public road
:in the US.
True, but then so is 95 mph! :}
:155 is something that the European community has agreed
:on I believe
I understand it's just a gentleman's agreement between certain
German mfrs. Porsche is not coöperating! :}
--
E.R. aka SJG aka Ricardo
present location: vancouver bc canada
refugee from the european union's evil bureaucracy |
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Frank Kemper
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:22 pm Post subject:
Re: 2005 545i vs 2005 A6 4.2 |
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E.R. <red_starinfrench@email.kom> haute in die Tasten:
| Quote: | I understand it's just a gentleman's agreement between certain
German mfrs. Porsche is not coöperating! :}
|
Exactly. The german manufacturers BMW, Mercedes and VW Group agreed upon
making cars not faster than 155 mph. Maybe also other manufacturers took
part, but they currently do not sell such fast cars in Germany. The reason
for that was avoiding a state law (which would probably have limited the
cars at a lower level) and avoiding a reckless speed race. They also wanted
to avoid the need for use of expensive and uncomfortable high performance
tires. When the agreeent was imposed some years ago, it was not regarded
likely that the manufacturers would make sedans with 500 HP;-)
Currently it seems that the manufacturers seek ways out of this agreement
to serve the needs of the speed-addicts. So Mercedes limits only the cars
sold under the brand name Mercedes, while the Mercedes-AMG models can go
faster (up to 200 mph). BMW offers higher speed limits for their M-cars
under certain condition (M3 CSL with 175 mph for buyers who can show a race
drivers license). IMHO the marketing problem for the company is to sell the
top of the line cars, when they are not faster than the cheaper models of
the line.
Frank
--
please replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact
Citroen - Made in Trance |
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Peter Bell
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 09, 2004 3:04 pm Post subject:
Re: 2005 545i vs 2005 A6 4.2 |
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In message <Xns95BA5F6371325eldosampleman@130.133.1.4>
Frank Kemper <spam-muelleimer@gmx.de> wrote:
[Snip]
| Quote: | Currently it seems that the manufacturers seek ways out of this
agreement to serve the needs of the speed-addicts. So Mercedes limits
only the cars sold under the brand name Mercedes, while the
Mercedes-AMG models can go faster (up to 200 mph). BMW offers higher
speed limits for their M-cars under certain condition (M3 CSL with
175 mph for buyers who can show a race drivers license).
|
.... and Audi (or, rather, quattro gmbh) fudge the issue by saying that
their cars are limited to 155mph (or, to be precise, 250kph), but then
describing this as a 'soft' limit. It is quite clear that the RS4 and
RS6 models are capable of comfortably exceeding 250kph (not that I've
been brave enough to prove this in our land of 70mph limits).
--
Peter Bell (Note Spamtrap - To reply, replace 'invalid' with 'bellfamily') |
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Ramone Cila
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:35 pm Post subject:
Re: 2005 545i vs 2005 A6 4.2 |
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"Frank Kemper" <spam-muelleimer@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:Xns95BA5F6371325eldosampleman@130.133.1.4...
| Quote: | IMHO the marketing problem for the company is to sell the
top of the line cars, when they are not faster than the cheaper models of
the line.
|
An interesting thing (at least to me anyway :^) came to mind while reading
this. It seems that for Europeans, when speaking about a "fast" car...it is
top speed that comes to mind, while generally for Americans it is
acceleration. Of course this has to do with speed limits I suppose, and
maybe motorsports, but even for me when someone talks about how fast a car
is I immediately think of acceleration 0-60 or 0-100, rather than *top*
speed. |
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Frank Kemper
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:22 am Post subject:
Re: 2005 545i vs 2005 A6 4.2 |
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"Ramone Cila" <dontw@nt.spam> haute in die Tasten:
| Quote: | An interesting thing (at least to me anyway :^) came to mind while
reading this. It seems that for Europeans, when speaking about a
"fast" car...it is top speed that comes to mind, while generally for
Americans it is acceleration. Of course this has to do with speed
limits I suppose, and maybe motorsports, but even for me when someone
talks about how fast a car is I immediately think of acceleration 0-60
or 0-100, rather than *top* speed.
|
Maybe it has to do with the speed limit. Drag racing for example is a true
american sports, which does not have many fans in Germany, while we have 24
hours endurance races (where BMW recently won a class prize with a close-
to-stock BMW 320d).
Frank
--
please replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact
Citroen - Made in Trance |
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Matt O'Toole
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 10, 2004 5:41 am Post subject:
Re: 2005 545i vs 2005 A6 4.2 |
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Frank Kemper wrote:
| Quote: | E.R. <red_starinfrench@email.kom> haute in die Tasten:
I understand it's just a gentleman's agreement between certain
German mfrs. Porsche is not coöperating! :}
Exactly. The german manufacturers BMW, Mercedes and VW Group agreed
upon making cars not faster than 155 mph. Maybe also other
manufacturers took part, but they currently do not sell such fast
cars in Germany. The reason for that was avoiding a state law (which
would probably have limited the cars at a lower level) and avoiding a
reckless speed race.
|
The story we got over here was that such an "arms race" would lead to a
political backlash from the car-hating Green Party, resulting in actual laws
that would be even more restrictive. So the carmakers agreed on the 155 MPH
limit.
They also wanted to avoid the need for use of
| Quote: | expensive and uncomfortable high performance tires.
|
A serious concern, with safety also. How can the safety of such high speed
tires be assured over time? Tire technology wasn't as advanced then either.
| Quote: | When the agreeent
was imposed some years ago, it was not regarded likely that the
manufacturers would make sedans with 500 HP;-)
|
No kidding. I remember when car magazines featuring 500 HP Ruf-modified
Porsches, which seemed incredibly exotic at the time. Now such cars seem
commonplace.
| Quote: | Currently it seems that the manufacturers seek ways out of this
agreement to serve the needs of the speed-addicts. So Mercedes limits
only the cars sold under the brand name Mercedes, while the
Mercedes-AMG models can go faster (up to 200 mph). BMW offers higher
speed limits for their M-cars under certain condition (M3 CSL with
175 mph for buyers who can show a race drivers license).
|
Ah, you Germans are so orderly (which is probably why you can have roads with no
speed limits). Over here, any idiot can buy such things -- and they do.
| Quote: | IMHO the
marketing problem for the company is to sell the top of the line
cars, when they are not faster than the cheaper models of the line.
|
Americans are not so logical. They want the "bestest" one, no matter the cost.
It's all about the bling, baby! Besides, it's only $50 more per month!
Matt O. |
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Frank Kemper
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:35 pm Post subject:
Re: 2005 545i vs 2005 A6 4.2 |
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"Matt O'Toole" <matt@deltanet.com> haute in die Tasten:
| Quote: | The story we got over here was that such an "arms race" would lead to
a political backlash from the car-hating Green Party, resulting in
actual laws that would be even more restrictive. So the carmakers
agreed on the 155 MPH limit.
|
Well, the car-hating Green Party was not member of the government, when the
agreement was imposed, and even today their influence is way too small to
bring us a general speed limit, even if they liked to;-)
Frank
--
please replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact
Citroen - Made in Trance |
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Frank Kemper
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:17 pm Post subject:
Re: 2005 545i vs 2005 A6 4.2 |
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"Matt O'Toole" <matt@deltanet.com> haute in die Tasten:
| Quote: | Ah, you Germans are so orderly (which is probably why you can have
roads with no speed limits). Over here, any idiot can buy such
things -- and they do.
|
Over here, too. There are lots of BMW tuners who do not limit their cars. Alpina has
just introduced their brad new Alpina B5 with a five litre supercharged V8 and 500 HP.
It is about as expensive as a new M5, features about the same acceleration and runs at
least 30 miles faster - with an ordinary torque converter autobox. Currently Alpina is
considering limiting the beast at 300 km/h (approx 186 mph) due to safety reasons.
And I am pretty sure that there are many companies, which legally remove the speed
limiter for you (but I do not know what the insurance companies think about that).
I think the decision of BMW to sell the 280 kph CSL only to certified race drivers was
some sort of marketing hype: They wanted to demonstrate that the M3 CSL is a street
legal race car. It was no decision enforced by law.
Frank
--
please replace spam-muelleimer with fk-newsgroups for e-mail contact
Citroen - Made in Trance |
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Jeff Mayner
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:04 pm Post subject:
Re: 2005 545i vs 2005 A6 4.2 |
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Seth Brundle wrote:
| Quote: | I have a 2000 540i, and am looking to upgrade.
It looks like a dead heat between the 05 545i and 05 A6 4.2.
|
I'm not sold on the new 5 Series looks, but, I have to tell you, the nose on
that Audi is absolutely hideous. JMO/YMMV
Jeff
| Quote: |
BMW has put me in such a difficult position with their pricing, body
design, and iDrive.
The first time I saw a 2005 545i I was like 'YUCK!!!'. I mean I really
wanted to like it but I just could not as hard as I tried. It truly
looks terrible to me, my girlfriend had the exact same reaction.
Meanwhile, the A6 is a very pedestrian Audi design - better in that it
doesnt bother me.
The Audi is limited to 130 MPH and although thats unfortunate, I think
I've only exceeded that once in the 540i anyway, and just briefly. The
540i is slightly faster in acceleration thanks to the torque if not
the HP.
I know I'll like driving the BMW more, thats what got me the 540i.
I've driven Audis - they are 'smooth' - real smooth, but Im not
looking for smooth, I like 'fun'.
Anyways - opinions?
|
--
---
"Every time I hear the news
That old feeling comes back on;
We're waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the Big Fool says to push on."
- Pete Seeger, 1967
--- |
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Ramone Cila
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:45 pm Post subject:
Re: 2005 545i vs 2005 A6 4.2 |
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"Jeff Mayner" <jeffmayner@yahoonospam.com> wrote in message
news:0f2dnbWbh6RVnVncRVn-gw@giganews.com...
| Quote: | Seth Brundle wrote:
I have a 2000 540i, and am looking to upgrade.
It looks like a dead heat between the 05 545i and 05 A6 4.2.
I'm not sold on the new 5 Series looks, but, I have to tell you, the nose
on
that Audi is absolutely hideous. JMO/YMMV
|
I have a 545 and although I wasn't completely enamored with it's looks it
doesn't seem to matter to me anymore. I like the drive and performance and I
love the spartan interior. I don't really dislike the new nose of the A6,
but if one does, but loves everything else about the car, I doubt the nose
will be much of an issue a few months down the road.
I just don't get excited about looks. Good or bad, they inevitably become
unimportant if the car satisfies (or dissatisfies) in what I consider to be
the more important areas. |
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